The Veganism Thread

Eldron · February 9, 2021

No herding (workers chasing the buck into a area where the "hunters" wait)
No bakkie shots
No shooting when they are vulnerable. There are people that like to wait in hides at designated feeding/watering points.
There's a difference between hiding while stalking and a hide. One makes the animal come to you while you wait, the other makes you go after the animal and work for it.
Giving the animal a chance to sense you and get away. (this goes with the hides thing)
Well placed shots, if you can't make the shot or doubt in it don't take it.
Making sure your equipment is capable. EX there are arguments that certain calibers can do the job for larger game, but recommendations are there for a reason.
To try and not stress out the herd at large (ie using a silencer)
No crazy long shots - shooting ranges exist for a reason
Only shooting what you are going to use.
No alcohol before or during the hunt
No traps/poisons etc (These are illegal anyway)
Leaving your environment as you found it (picking up spent cases etc)
Respecting your bounty. You just shot something so there should be no waste.
Luckily it has not happened to me, but if you don't kill on the first shot you do your best to find the animal and finish what you started. I believe this goes hand in hand with taking shots you are uncertain about.

Then also following the general guidelines and rules, buck over a certain age etc.

I like to put effort into the hunt, track,stalk and shoot not getting dropped off where the herd is. Doing your research etc.
It makes me feel like I've worked for it and makes me respect the hunt.

Obviously every persons morals and ethics vary.
This is something that is more easily shown than said though.

Me - I don't understand it. If the thrill is in the hunt then why not just take a great picture? Do you really feel pleasure/thrill/euphoria from killing something? Especially is you are only going to take shots you are almost certain to make.

Some of my friends are hunters and I fully understand that a whole industry has developed around hunting but where is the fun in making something else suffer/die?

Surely as a species we have moved on from that? Hunting used to be a necessity but now we can have "bounty" 24 hours a day from a multitude of shops.

There is also the "animal lover" issue. You make money by raising animals purely to be killed but a portion of your revenue goes to wildlife preservation to you get to call yourself an animal lover? That makes no sense.

Jurgens Smit · February 9, 2021

I know there will never be agreement here, so maybe the less said the better...

I think there is a difference between people nominating themselves as an animal lover (this is where it started) as in a living being, and a lover of an animal as a commodity.

I'm getting the overwhelming feeling you are describing being a lover of animals as commodities. As long as you feel you worked hard enough to either deserve killing it, manipulate it, benefit from it, monetise it, then taking a life is way down the totem pole.

Ethics have very different meanings between each person and in each circumstance its referred to in, but this post above makes it sound like 'fairness in a game' is your ethical priority in hunting, while others could argue animals and lives are not for games.

Me - I don't understand it. If the thrill is in the hunt then why not just take a great picture? Do you really feel pleasure/thrill/euphoria from killing something? Especially is you are only going to take shots you are almost certain to make.

Some of my friends are hunters and I fully understand that a whole industry has developed around hunting but where is the fun in making something else suffer/die?

Surely as a species we have moved on from that? Hunting used to be a necessity but now we can have "bounty" 24 hours a day from a multitude of shops.

There is also the "animal lover" issue. You make money by raising animals purely to be killed but a portion of your revenue goes to wildlife preservation to you get to call yourself an animal lover? That makes no sense.

I'd prefer to not further derail this thread which I'm really enjoying by discussing vastly differing views.

This is after all the veganism thread and I commented on a response to the animal lover thing.

If you'd like to discuss further, you're more than welcome to PM me so I can try to explain my views more clearly in a constructive chat.

Eldron · February 9, 2021

I'd prefer to not further derail this thread which I'm really enjoying by discussing vastly differing views.
This is after all the veganism thread and I commented on a response to the animal lover thing.
If you'd like to discuss further, you're more than welcome to PM me so I can try to explain my views more clearly in a constructive chat.

Hunting, climate change, health etc are all part of the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle so I think it belongs on here. I'm all for constructive chats and I think an honest public debate about it would benefit everyone - no need to take it to PM.

Patchelicious · February 9, 2021

I'd prefer to not further derail this thread which I'm really enjoying by discussing vastly differing views.
This is after all the veganism thread and I commented on a response to the animal lover thing.
If you'd like to discuss further, you're more than welcome to PM me so I can try to explain my views more clearly in a constructive chat.

You have been engaging very constructively, thank you, do not be discouraged.

Patchelicious · February 9, 2021

No herding (workers chasing the buck into a area where the "hunters" wait)
No bakkie shots
No shooting when they are vulnerable. There are people that like to wait in hides at designated feeding/watering points.
There's a difference between hiding while stalking and a hide. One makes the animal come to you while you wait, the other makes you go after the animal and work for it.
Giving the animal a chance to sense you and get away. (this goes with the hides thing)
Well placed shots, if you can't make the shot or doubt in it don't take it.
Making sure your equipment is capable. EX there are arguments that certain calibers can do the job for larger game, but recommendations are there for a reason.
To try and not stress out the herd at large (ie using a silencer)
No crazy long shots - shooting ranges exist for a reason
Only shooting what you are going to use.
No alcohol before or during the hunt
No traps/poisons etc (These are illegal anyway)
Leaving your environment as you found it (picking up spent cases etc)
Respecting your bounty. You just shot something so there should be no waste.
Luckily it has not happened to me, but if you don't kill on the first shot you do your best to find the animal and finish what you started. I believe this goes hand in hand with taking shots you are uncertain about.

Then also following the general guidelines and rules, buck over a certain age etc.

I like to put effort into the hunt, track,stalk and shoot not getting dropped off where the herd is. Doing your research etc.
It makes me feel like I've worked for it and makes me respect the hunt.

Obviously every persons morals and ethics vary.
This is something that is more easily shown than said though.

That's the thing I suppose, ethics vary, but tis great that you can present your opposing views.

Looking at your list above I agree with much of it from a certain point. Particularly around what I would probably call "responsible hunting", making sure your equipment is good, no long shots, no drinking etc. as that reduces the chances of the animal suffering longer.

But when if comes to ethics, how does shooting an animal from a bakkie differ to shooting an animal from a walk n stalk, from the animals point of view?

ps: If people have to hunt, I hope they follow your rules.

Chris_ · February 9, 2021

I'd prefer to not further derail this thread which I'm really enjoying by discussing vastly differing views.
This is after all the veganism thread and I commented on a response to the animal lover thing.
If you'd like to discuss further, you're more than welcome to PM me so I can try to explain my views more clearly in a constructive chat.

I agree the topics are very much interlinked.

Remember veganism is not just a diet plan. Its equally about your relationship with animals / the earth / its resources. As I said before I'm sure none of us will change each others' minds about this, but theres no reason to stop a fairly pertinent to the topic (civil) debate.

I do though remember the round and round debates on the hunting thread when it started. In fact it may be interesting to read my own comments on it again given its been how-many-more years of me not eating animals since then so could be interesting.

Jurgens Smit · February 9, 2021

This topic becomes a very hard thing to answer. Especially when you're put in the spot light ^_^ .

So if I may, to understand your views. Where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable and isn't. Is the views on killing limited to mammals? Things with intelligence?

What is the difference between killing a fly and a buck?
If you spray doom in your house you can see the fly fall and you can see them twitch, is that nerves fading or pain? Insects are considered animals but the majority of people kill them without a second thought.
Plants react to stimuli and pain, if you garden you can generally see in a few plants when you trim it how they react to the stimuli.

Where is the line drawn with what is acceptable to kill vs what isn't?

When it comes to meat, we can be realistic and say the industry is cruel. What does woolworths do different when they say they are sow friendly, or free range or any other "animal friendly" meat in the store. All those animals are raised to be slaughtered as Eldron mentioned, yet because they are available 24/7 in a shop it makes it better than hunting?

As I said in my first post on this topic, the label is tricky.

Maybe there is a psychological side to why people hunt, but I am fairly certain in saying I am comfortable in taking the life of a deer (as it's been put here) with my mindset and my moral/ethical views and still saying I love animals.

I've mentioned in a previous post that change is necessary for the world to improve and thats part of why I hunt and fish, it's not done for sport and I take no more than is needed. I agree with the post Chris made, saying I view animals as commodities, and in a sense yes, but I also do love them. It's just extremely hard for me to verbalize why. And I think the difference comes in from the questions above is where you draw the line as to what is acceptable for you and what isn't. For you it may be acceptable to eradicate all insects in your house, but for me it is fine to shoot 1 or 2 buck a year to eat.

There are a lot of things when it comes to vegetarianism that I do not agree with. That may be due to ignorance or misunderstanding. But I could pose the question how could you call yourself an animal lover when farming is eradicating habitats, or buying that new iPhone has materials in it that are mined in a way that renders the area unusable for a long long time thereafter.

Jurgens Smit · February 9, 2021

But when if comes to ethics, how does shooting an animal from a bakkie differ to shooting an animal from a walk n stalk, from the animals point of view?

This brings in the great debate of the animal intelligence I suppose.

Do animals understand ethics and morality?

I don't think so. There are no observable ethics or morality in the animal kingdom that I know of, only instinct.

Regarding what I believe to be the difference, with a stalk you are giving the animal a fair chance. They can hear see or smell you and take the opportunity to get away. vs with a bakkie you shooting from 200m out, in a perfect position, with stable rests and time to set up etc.

Patchelicious · February 9, 2021

This brings in the great debate of the animal intelligence I suppose.
Do animals understand ethics and morality?

I don't think so. There are no observable ethics or morality in the animal kingdom that I know of, only instinct.

Regarding what I believe to be the difference, with a stalk you are giving the animal a fair chance. They can hear see or smell you and take the opportunity to get away. vs with a bakkie you shooting from 200m out, in a perfect position, with stable rests and time to set up etc.

On the first part, I will let those who further along the journey offer an opinion.

On the highlighted part: Doesn't the latter reduce the risk of wounding or prolonging the suffering?

Look, I get it, I also prefer the sense of fairness, but is it real fairness (those what about hunting with a knife or bow etc arguments) or is it better for the animal, that's where I am conflicted.

Jurgens Smit · February 9, 2021

On the first part, I will let those who further along the journey offer an opinion.

On the highlighted part: Doesn't the latter reduce the risk of wounding or prolonging the suffering?

Look, I get it, I also prefer the sense of fairness, but is it real fairness (those what about hunting with a knife or bow etc arguments) or is it better for the animal, that's where I am conflicted.

It could also instill a false sense of confidence.

You could end up taking riskier shots.

From a point of view where you are 100% responsible and don't take risks, then yes, I suppose it is better for the animal because there is less chance of it happening. But IMO then it's not hunting, rather shooting. And you can do that on a range.

I shoot with a stick rest, to make sure I place my shot where I want it to be.

I bought a stick to ensure minimal risk of wounding.

I'm still very conflicted about bow hunting so can't really give an opinion there, but knives and spears are illegal for hunting game, not sure about the legalities and so forth on fishing.

Eldron · February 9, 2021

This topic becomes a very hard thing to answer. Especially when you're put in the spot light .

So if I may, to understand your views. Where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable and isn't. Is the views on killing limited to mammals? Things with intelligence?

What is the difference between killing a fly and a buck?
If you spray doom in your house you can see the fly fall and you can see them twitch, is that nerves fading or pain? Insects are considered animals but the majority of people kill them without a second thought.
Plants react to stimuli and pain, if you garden you can generally see in a few plants when you trim it how they react to the stimuli.

Where is the line drawn with what is acceptable to kill vs what isn't?

When it comes to meat, we can be realistic and say the industry is cruel. What does woolworths do different when they say they are sow friendly, or free range or any other "animal friendly" meat in the store. All those animals are raised to be slaughtered as Eldron mentioned, yet because they are available 24/7 in a shop it makes it better than hunting?
As I said in my first post on this topic, the label is tricky.
Maybe there is a psychological side to why people hunt, but I am fairly certain in saying I am comfortable in taking the life of a deer (as it's been put here) with my mindset and my moral/ethical views and still saying I love animals.

I've mentioned in a previous post that change is necessary for the world to improve and thats part of why I hunt and fish, it's not done for sport and I take no more than is needed. I agree with the post Chris made, saying I view animals as commodities, and in a sense yes, but I also do love them. It's just extremely hard for me to verbalize why. And I think the difference comes in from the questions above is where you draw the line as to what is acceptable for you and what isn't. For you it may be acceptable to eradicate all insects in your house, but for me it is fine to shoot 1 or 2 buck a year to eat.
There are a lot of things when it comes to vegetarianism that I do not agree with. That may be due to ignorance or misunderstanding. But I could pose the question how could you call yourself an animal lover when farming is eradicating habitats, or buying that new iPhone has materials in it that are mined in a way that renders the area unusable for a long long time thereafter.

Most of what you describe there is something everyone should be doing - using the planet less.

Kill less insects, animals, birds - use fewer phones - driving less - be a more considerate human being - your children will thank you in 50 years :-)

Specifically the hunting though - why do you want to stalk and kill animals? Where is the pleasure/reward? It's a question that I'm quite curious about - as an example here in Denmark we are supposed to be the best of humanity in terms of social mobility, minority rights, equality, safety, governance etc but Denmark's attitude to animals is not great (despite having a high vegan/vegetarian incidence). Hunting is also pretty popular among both sexes. I find it a little strange.

What is man's fascination with killing animals personally?

Chris_ · February 9, 2021

....

Where is the line drawn with what is acceptable to kill vs what isn't?
...

Lets start here. A lot of this is quite general, so don't think I'm boxing you in. (This turned into a bit of a blurb, so apols)

I said before its about my relationship with the world. I'm here, and I don't believe the world and everything on it is solely for me to consume and use. (yes, thats heavy) The longer I go without eating meat - which was unheard of for most of my life, the more it seems I can do so without any negative result. I mean I've done Ironmans, run 100 miles, my brain hasn't ceased to function, my body hasn't collapsed, so physically - there really is no need. Obviously mental is the bigger part.

Also the longer I don't eat meat the more I think about why I chose to do so more generally. So now I'm thinking about do I really need leather whatevers, do I really need cows milk, and so on. The more I learn about whats going on, the more I think well I could probably do without 'this' consumption. We love going to game reserves to see animals and birds, we've developed a far greater appreciation for seeing them in the 'wild'. Next thing we're learning about trees, grasses, bugs, reptiles - it really does seem the more I learn about whom or what ever, the less reason I see for wanton destruction (despite sounding so obvious when written down like that). Diving, I love diving, its a totally different world, it took one second to build an appreciation to not want to see these creatures and environments wiped out.

Would I kill a bug, no I'd pick it up and chuck it somewhere else, would I kill a snake, no same thing, well someone else can pick it up. Ants? Flies? Mozzies? Of course, but I'm not seeking them out to kill. The thing is I really see no reason to have to kill anything. They;re not here for us to do as we please.

You said trees and pain. Off topic: A while ago, we pulled off the road while on a game drive and he told us to chew on a leaf from one bush. We did. He then shook the tree quite aggressively. A second later we chowed a leave from a similar bush a few meters away and the thing was suddenly sour! So yes they do talk to each other, its unbelievable! But, if I'm going to choose between eating plants and animals, plants are not sentient beings, so thats it. simple. But again a good example of me learning the incredible'ness of nature and not trying to directly or indirectly overdo my quota.

buying that iphone - do you need a phone - yes, do you need a phone every year, and a new tablet, and new tv, and a new car, and a new blah blah - thats the difference to me. One you can justify as necessity, the other is wasteful, and increasingly harmful to the planet.

Lastly, hunting vs buying from the shop. Mass produced animal is a travesty the more I learn about conditions. Their lives are miserable and their death is miserable. Hunting them yes their lives are potentially better but death is death at the end of the day. Theres no such thing as ethical killing as far as I'm concerned. They don't want to die, so it really is just you justifying it however you choose. But would I support you in shooting your own buck and using the entire thing vs buying packaged bits and pieces from woolies where only 50% (don't quote me on that) is used and the rest goes to waste - yes. (there is a third option though)

Jurgens Smit · February 9, 2021

Lets start here. A lot of this is quite general, so don't think I'm boxing you in. (This turned into a bit of a blurb, so apols)

I said before its about my relationship with the world. I'm here, and I don't believe the world and everything on it is solely for me to consume and use. (yes, thats heavy) The longer I go without eating meat - which was unheard of for most of my life, the more it seems I can do so without any negative result. I mean I've done Ironmans, run 100 miles, my brain hasn't ceased to function, my body hasn't collapsed, so physically - there really is no need. Obviously mental is the bigger part.

Also the longer I don't eat meat the more I think about why I chose to do so more generally. So now I'm thinking about do I really need leather whatevers, do I really need cows milk, and so on. The more I learn about whats going on, the more I think well I could probably do without 'this' consumption. We love going to game reserves to see animals and birds, we've developed a far greater appreciation for seeing them in the 'wild'. Next thing we're learning about trees, grasses, bugs, reptiles - it really does seem the more I learn about whom or what ever, the less reason I see for wanton destruction (despite sounding so obvious when written down like that). Diving, I love diving, its a totally different world, it took one second to build an appreciation to not want to see these creatures and environments wiped out.

Would I kill a bug, no I'd pick it up and chuck it somewhere else, would I kill a snake, no same thing, well someone else can pick it up. Ants? Flies? Mozzies? Of course, but I'm not seeking them out to kill. The thing is I really see no reason to have to kill anything. They;re not here for us to do as we please.

You said trees and pain. Off topic: A while ago, we pulled off the road while on a game drive and he told us to chew on a leaf from one bush. We did. He then shook the tree quite aggressively. A second later we chowed a leave from a similar bush a few meters away and the thing was suddenly sour! So yes they do talk to each other, its unbelievable! But, if I'm going to choose between eating plants and animals, plants are not sentient beings, so thats it. simple. But again a good example of me learning the incredible'ness of nature and not trying to directly or indirectly overdo my quota.

buying that iphone - do you need a phone - yes, do you need a phone every year, and a new tablet, and new tv, and a new car, and a new blah blah - thats the difference to me. One you can justify as necessity, the other is wasteful, and increasingly harmful to the planet.

Lastly, hunting vs buying from the shop. Mass produced animal is a travesty the more I learn about conditions. Their lives are miserable and their death is miserable. Hunting them yes their lives are potentially better but death is death at the end of the day. Theres no such thing as ethical killing as far as I'm concerned. They don't want to die, so it really is just you justifying it however you choose. But would I support you in shooting your own buck and using the entire thing vs buying packaged bits and pieces from woolies where only 50% (don't quote me on that) is used and the rest goes to waste - yes. (there is a third option though)

May I ask what was your personal reason for going plant based?

The tree bit is interesting as I've never seen that happen, however could you not argue that plants are sentient? The word means this: Sentience is the capacity to be aware of feelings and sensations. By your experience the plant one over is aware of the feelings/sensations experienced by the previous plant and acted accordingly.

I disagree with the ethical killing bit. As I understand it, ethics are driven by morals. Your moral values tell you it's wrong to kill an animal. Mine say it's fine when it meets these conditions. Ethics dictate the way in which you carry that out. Morally I could be fine with killing an animal, but ethically I could be fine with say lets trap/use poison or any method that is cruel and causes suffering. When you look at the method, a correctly placed bullet is an ethical/humane method as far as death is concerned.

As far as the rest of your post goes. I agree mostly. It is our responsibility to look after what we are given and when we take from nature we need to do it in a responsible way. Your beliefs dictate that killing for sustenance is wrong, mine say as long as it is done within reason.

I'm in this thread for the 3rd reason . I want to incorporate more plant based meals into my diet, just not do the full switch.

Jurgens Smit · February 9, 2021

Most of what you describe there is something everyone should be doing - using the planet less.

Kill less insects, animals, birds - use fewer phones - driving less - be a more considerate human being - your children will thank you in 50 years :-)

Specifically the hunting though - why do you want to stalk and kill animals? Where is the pleasure/reward? It's a question that I'm quite curious about - as an example here in Denmark we are supposed to be the best of humanity in terms of social mobility, minority rights, equality, safety, governance etc but Denmark's attitude to animals is not great (despite having a high vegan/vegetarian incidence). Hunting is also pretty popular among both sexes. I find it a little strange.

What is man's fascination with killing animals personally?

1st bold statement:

I believe I've answered my reasons for this bit(I can elaborate if needs be), others will obviously have their own, with which I personally may or may not agree.

2nd bold statement:

I don't know on the fascination bit. I'd love for a psych study to be done so we can see if there is a fundamental difference in humans as there is with the whole fight vs flight gene, or if it is environmental factors that cause us to differ. ie my dad is fine with hunting and I grew up that way thus I am fine with it.

Eldron · February 9, 2021

I'm in this thread for the 3rd reason . I want to incorporate more plant based meals into my diet, just not do the full switch.

This is one thing that just about anybody who cares about the planet's future can agree on.

Any reduction in meat consumption is good for the planet regardless if you're a hunter or not.

Eldron · February 9, 2021

1st bold statement:
I believe I've answered my reasons for this bit(I can elaborate if needs be), others will obviously have their own, with which I personally may or may not agree.

2nd bold statement:
I don't know on the fascination bit. I'd love for a psych study to be done so we can see if there is a fundamental difference in humans as there is with the whole fight vs flight gene, or if it is environmental factors that cause us to differ. ie my dad is fine with hunting and I grew up that way thus I am fine with it.

Do you enjoy it though? Does killing pleasure you? Is there a rush?

I tried it all and all I felt was shame and regret.

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