The Veganism Thread

[Chris_]

May I ask what was your personal reason for going plant based?

 

The tree bit is interesting as I've never seen that happen, however could you not argue that plants are sentient? The word means this: Sentience is the capacity to be aware of feelings and sensations. By your experience the plant one over is aware of the feelings/sensations experienced by the previous plant and acted accordingly.

 

I disagree with the ethical killing bit. As I understand it, ethics are driven by morals. Your moral values tell you it's wrong to kill an animal. Mine say it's fine when it meets these conditions. Ethics dictate the way in which you carry that out. Morally I could be fine with killing an animal, but ethically I could be fine with say lets trap/use poison or any method that is cruel and causes suffering. When you look at the method, a correctly placed bullet is an ethical/humane method as far as death is concerned.

 

As far as the rest of your post goes. I agree mostly. It is our responsibility to look after what we are given and when we take from nature we need to do it in a responsible way. Your beliefs dictate that killing for sustenance is wrong, mine say as long as it is done within reason.

 

I'm in this thread for the 3rd reason . I want to incorporate more plant based meals into my diet, just not do the full switch.

 

For me it was a diet experiment, I've tried out most diets just out of interest. For my wife it was to lower cholesterol. We've both decided to stick with it.

 

Plants I think have a mechanism built in. I know some plants have evolved to become incredibly adept at doing x and y but.. I don't think its a conscience move on their behalf. Self-preservation seems to be just ingrown and not an emotional decision. Its the same as releasing spores or seeds maybe, its a transformative process that happens at an exact time, but not an actively conscious decision. Maybe that was the wrong choice of word on my behalf. (?) Difficult to explain

 

Ja third paragraph we come unstuck. I hear and I understand and may even agree with a lot of your view, but ultimately I feel it can become a war of words and select definitions to justify your stance.

I like killing this way but not killing that way - sometimes with these kind of arguments I struggle to find the difference.

[Wayne Potgieter]

Hi Jurgens.

 

First of all, can I just say that I am grateful for your contributions to this thread. While I may disagree with some of your points, I am pleased that we can engage in a civil debate and compare ideologies and thoughts in a constructive way.  We don't always have to agree, and the world will be a better place if we debate things with critical thought more often.

 

I think what you may be leaning towards is more a plant based diet as opposed to Veganism. The two or fundamentally different. In my own journey, I started with being plant based and slowly came to become vegan through ongoing education and investigation. (although admittedly I dont always get this right - but I try)

 

Now, my personal belief here is even reducing your meat intake is a great idea, and the world is not binary. There is always this push by opposing sides to see things in absolutes. The world actually does not work that way, and even a step or two in the (subjectively speaking) "right direction" is a good thing.

 

From a vegan point of view, hunting and veganism are simply not compatible. Regardless of anyone's love for animals, killing one is simply not in line with doing no harm to other animals.

 

With respects to "humane" methods of killing. One needs to consider what that word actually means. It is defined as having compassion. The only perceivable situation I can fathom for a human ending of an animals life is to end terminal suffering. Beyond that, it is simply consumption.

 

There is this "whataboutism" argument about plants having feelings and sentiency and that Vegans should not be eating plants either, but again, the world is not binary. Humans need to eat something. And until such time as we can resolve that, we will need to pick our evils I suppose. Remember that veganism is about doing no harm where possible. 

 

Again, I think this debate is healthy and constructive, we may never agree. That's ok. But at least we make every effort to understand each others point of view. 

 

I truly commend you for including more veg in your diet and trying to be part of the solution.

[Stretch]

 

 

. In my own journey,.

Isn't it bizarre to think you had a burger place a few years ago

[Wayne Potgieter]

Isn't it bizarre to think you had a burger place a few years ago

You should see the biltong drying machines I used to build.

 

I used to convert double door old school office cupboards (the beige and brown ones) into huge biltong driers.

 

Life is a journey!

[Grass Muncher]

May I ask what was your personal reason for going plant based?

 

The tree bit is interesting as I've never seen that happen, however could you not argue that plants are sentient? The word means this: Sentience is the capacity to be aware of feelings and sensations. By your experience the plant one over is aware of the feelings/sensations experienced by the previous plant and acted accordingly.

 

I disagree with the ethical killing bit. As I understand it, ethics are driven by morals. Your moral values tell you it's wrong to kill an animal. Mine say it's fine when it meets these conditions. Ethics dictate the way in which you carry that out. Morally I could be fine with killing an animal, but ethically I could be fine with say lets trap/use poison or any method that is cruel and causes suffering. When you look at the method, a correctly placed bullet is an ethical/humane method as far as death is concerned.

 

As far as the rest of your post goes. I agree mostly. It is our responsibility to look after what we are given and when we take from nature we need to do it in a responsible way. Your beliefs dictate that killing for sustenance is wrong, mine say as long as it is done within reason.

 

I'm in this thread for the 3rd reason . I want to incorporate more plant based meals into my diet, just not do the full switch.

I also just wanted to incorporate more plant based meals into my diet but after a while the full switch started kicking in.

 

Some animals will be valued more than others especially if they're an endangered species.

I don't mind if people eat dog because I categorize dogs and pigs in the same sentient bracket because pigs have shown to be just as if not more emotionally intelligent as dogs. It makes people hipocrites if they are against dog farming.

[Wayne Potgieter]

It is our responsibility to look after what we are given and when we take from nature we need to do it in a responsible way. 

Id like to probe this a little more.

 

And at the risk of turning this into a religious discussion, what makes you feel that we were "given" anything?

 

The reason I ask is this is fundamental to my argument that we are not more important than others. We need to coexist. The notion that animals are "given" to us for consumption goes against veganism.

 

I am genuinely not trolling. I am trying to evaluate the perspective that you are approaching this from and I hope this does not offend.

[Jurgens Smit]

Hi Jurgens.

 

First of all, can I just say that I am grateful for your contributions to this thread. While I may disagree with some of your points, I am pleased that we can engage in a civil debate and compare ideologies and thoughts in a constructive way.  We don't always have to agree, and the world will be a better place if we debate things with critical thought more often.

 

I think what you may be leaning towards is more a plant based diet as opposed to Veganism. The two or fundamentally different. In my own journey, I started with being plant based and slowly came to become vegan through ongoing education and investigation. (although admittedly I dont always get this right - but I try)

 

Now, my personal belief here is even reducing your meat intake is a great idea, and the world is not binary. There is always this push by opposing sides to see things in absolutes. The world actually does not work that way, and even a step or two in the (subjectively speaking) "right direction" is a good thing.

 

From a vegan point of view, hunting and veganism are simply not compatible. Regardless of anyone's love for animals, killing one is simply not in line with doing no harm to other animals.

 

With respects to "humane" methods of killing. One needs to consider what that word actually means. It is defined as having compassion. The only perceivable situation I can fathom for a human ending of an animals life is to end terminal suffering. Beyond that, it is simply consumption.

 

There is this "whataboutism" argument about plants having feelings and sentiency and that Vegans should not be eating plants either, but again, the world is not binary. Humans need to eat something. And until such time as we can resolve that, we will need to pick our evils I suppose. Remember that veganism is about doing no harm where possible. 

 

Again, I think this debate is healthy and constructive, we may never agree. That's ok. But at least we make every effort to understand each others point of view. 

 

I truly commend you for including more veg in your diet and trying to be part of the solution.

Thanks, I'm glad I could share my personal views with everyone here. Hopefully I did not offend anyone as that was not my intent in any way.

I know I've learnt something, even though we still disagree, I definitely do understand more about the lifestyle.

 

There were small things that I never understood and thought it was just people being snobs (like leather) but in whats been said I understand why.

 

At the end of the day we can all disagree, dislike and what ever else we want to feel, but people with differing mindsets will eventually need to get together to resolve the issues both groups face. And understanding both sides goes a long way to paving that road.

[Jurgens Smit]

Id like to probe this a little more.

 

And at the risk of turning this into a religious discussion, what makes you feel that we were "given" anything?

 

The reason I ask is this is fundamental to my argument that we are not more important than others. We need to coexist. The notion that animals are "given" to us for consumption goes against veganism.

 

I am genuinely not trolling. I am trying to evaluate the perspective that you are approaching this from and I hope this does not offend.

Maybe given is the wrong word, as I do not mean it from a belief POV.

 

If I may rephrase as my idea/intent in the statement remains the same - it is a privilege to take from nature and doing so should be done responsibly.

 

Humans are generally smarter than animals, whether you believe in a Deity that placed you here, in evolution or prometheus creating you on the down low, we as humans have a responsibility to look after the earth. Christianity believes mankind was created to have dominion over the animal kingdom. I was raised Christian so I think that might be where my wording came from.

 

Doesn't offend, don't stress

Edited February 10, 2021 by Jurgens Smit

[Chris_]

Maybe given is the wrong word, as I do not mean it from a belief POV.

 

If I may rephrase as my idea/intent in the statement remains the same - it is a privilege to take from nature and doing so should be done responsibly.

 

Humans are generally smarter than animals, whether you believe in a Deity that placed you here, in evolution or prometheus creating you on the down low, we as humans have a responsibility to look after the earth. Christianity believes mankind was created to have dominion over the animal kingdom. I was raised Christian so I think that might be where my wording came from.

 

Doesn't offend, don't stress

 

Not accusing, just adding against the above view: 

 

I couple years ago we were in Mexico City and it was quite literally like having an asthma attack 24/7. The air is getting unbreathable in some of our big cities. We are emptying, polluting and poisoning our oceans. We are digging up, poisoning and 'degrading' our soil and earth. We are eradicating an astonishing amount of fauna and flora from existence. The only thing 'gaining' is humans.

 

There is no balance. This plan that the world is for us is evidently not working. 

[Jurgens Smit]

Not accusing, just adding against the above view: 

 

I couple years ago we were in Mexico City and it was quite literally like having an asthma attack 24/7. The air is getting unbreathable in some of our big cities. We are emptying, polluting and poisoning our oceans. We are digging up, poisoning and 'degrading' our soil and earth. We are eradicating an astonishing amount of fauna and flora from existence. The only thing 'gaining' is humans.

 

There is no balance. This plan that the world is for us is evidently not working. 

Greed is a hell of a drug.

[Jurgens Smit]

If I may ask, why are animal derived byproducts not allowed by the plant based diets?
Like wool which can be harvested(i think that is the correct word?) without harm to the sheep, or cheese and other diary products which can be obtained without suffering?

Is it to do with the below point Wayne made?
The reason I ask is this is fundamental to my argument that we are not more important than others. We need to coexist. The notion that animals are "given" to us for consumption goes against veganism.

[Eldron]

The overriding constant is this thread is that the time for us versus them is over.

 

As long as people keep pointing fingers at the "other" in order to minimize their own responsibility we all lose.

 

We can probably carry on as is and those of us in the over 40 category will not see radical change but our children will and their children will see massive global change due to our over consumption coupled with our lack of will to change.

 

The time is now - hunter or not meat eater or not.

 

Fortunately social pressure/change has made being a vegan/vegetarian/minimal meat eater socially acceptable. In the 2 years this thread has been going we've gone from people posting pics of their meat and saying how much they enjoy it to decent debate. Win win.

[Chris_]

If I may ask, why are animal derived byproducts not allowed by the plant based diets?

Like wool which can be harvested(i think that is the correct word?) without harm to the sheep, or cheese and other diary products which can be obtained without suffering?

 

Is it to do with the below point Wayne made?

The reason I ask is this is fundamental to my argument that we are not more important than others. We need to coexist. The notion that animals are "given" to us for consumption goes against veganism.

You need to discern for the sake of these debates the difference between vegetarian and vegan. I'm not actually sure what a plant based diet is, I always thought it was an umbrella term for many types of newer diets.

 

I'm speaking out of turn here but the animals do suffer. Dairy cows have to be artificially inseminated every year for their calf to be taken away to be killed and them continue to produce milk. They live attached to machines sucking them dry - that's not how cows are meant to live. Hens are specially bred to live life in cages and churn out eggs.

 

Their lives are purpose grown for our enjoyment, only.

[Jurgens Smit]

You need to discern for the sake of these debates the difference between vegetarian and vegan. I'm not actually sure what a plant based diet is, I always thought it was an umbrella term for many types of newer diets.

 

I'm speaking out of turn here but the animals do suffer. Dairy cows have to be artificially inseminated every year for their calf to be taken away to be killed and them continue to produce milk. They live attached to machines sucking them dry - that's not how cows are meant to live. Hens are specially bred to live life in cages and churn out eggs.

 

Their lives are purpose grown for our enjoyment, only.

See this is interesting, I'm always skeptical when reading about issues like this because 99% of the content you find is not written from a neutral perspective. Which makes it hard to see is this being blown up out of proportion, or is it actual fact.

 

Thanks, I'll do some further reading up.

Also need to understand what free range actually means for things like cows and chickens when it comes to eggs and milk.

[Chris_]

See this is interesting, I'm always skeptical when reading about issues like this because 99% of the content you find is not written from a neutral perspective. Which makes it hard to see is this being blown up out of proportion, or is it actual fact.

 

Thanks, I'll do some further reading up.

Also need to understand what free range actually means for things like cows and chickens when it comes to eggs and milk.

Indeed. What percent of beef, pork, chicken, milk, eggs, etc comes from mass produced farms, and what comes from free range /specialty fed and how they're treated and produced. Again though, as previously discussed we're looking at animals as very different beings when switching the focus to highlight the need to look at these types of things. One is justifying a view about fairly (?) using them as a commodity, the other is that they're a commodity at all.

 

Conversely, also read about greenwashing. It's a advertising tactic to make people believe things are environmentally friendly. It's been a real hit lately.

[Wayne Potgieter]

You need to discern for the sake of these debates the difference between vegetarian and vegan. I'm not actually sure what a plant based diet is, I always thought it was an umbrella term for many types of newer diets.

 

 

Good question.

 

Veganism is a lifestyle that avoids use of animal derived products where possible. So no leather car interior, no leather belts, no honey, some extreme vegans wont eat Avocados as bees are used in the fertilisation process thus making them an "animal product". 

 

Plant based is a diet. You eat veggies while wearing a woolen jumper. You use animal products, but don't eat anything from an animal.

 

Veganism is becoming a synonym (especially from a marketing POV) for plant based, but they are actually quite different.