The Veganism Thread

[Mudsimus]

I really hope you win Patch!

 

Beyoncé and JAY-Z are giving fans all the motivation they need to start living a new lifestyle with a new vegan challenge.

 

http://time.com/5517618/beyonce-vegan-challenge/

Become a vegan, get free Jayz tickets for life! I'm going full carnivore just to be safe. Edited February 1, 2019 by Mudsimus

[Chris_]

Become a vegan, get free Jayz tickets for life! I'm going full carnivore just to be safe.

 

Jay-Z, really? 

 

I'm not sure Karlien van Jaarsveld will offer you the same opportunity

[Odinson]

Become a vegan, get free Jayz tickets for life! I'm going full carnivore just to be safe.

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1090841605706211329

[Odinson]

I have displayed a level of hyperbole to illustrate some frustration that very little concession is being made on some parts. I also think it is fair to say, that I have displayed a level of patience that is not necessarily being reciprocated. 

 

Ditto. I think it is fair to say that few who comment on this thread make concessions as to the ethical validity of veganism (that's the big one! To this day and if my memory serves me right, I have yet to see a non-veggie post here that they agree that it is immoral/unethical to kill an animal if there is no true necessity to do so) and/or the health and environmental benefits. 

 

On this thread I have maintained that plant based diets will contribute to the solving the problem. I will refrain from using the word 'always" if that will help keep you focused my message rather than semantics of my words.

 

I agree with 90% of what is being said here.

 

I agree that ethically vegansism makes sense for animal rights.

I agree that plant based diets are good for the environment.

I agree that plant based diets are better for humans that the current SAD.

 

We agree! 

 

Because of this, I am meat free 3 days a week now.

 

 

The things I disagree with are much more nuanced.

 

I do not agree that plant based diets are simply the "best diets" for humans.

This I've never claimed. No one knows what the best diet is or whether it can even be claimed that there is a 'best diet'. My position is that on a preponderance of good evidence, the majority of the chronic illnesses that plague most countries (obesity, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.) can either be prevented, arrested or even reversed using a plant-based diet. 

I do not agree veganism will single handily save the planet.

Also never claimed that - if you want to disagree with the research indicating that it's one of the most impactful things that an average person can do to reduce their footprint, go right ahead. 

I do not agree agree with the the approach some vegans take to the topic.

You don't have to agree with every vegan to understand the message, e.g. just because there are radical feminists doesn't mean that the principles of feminism should be thrown by the wayside. 

 

Veganism is not perfect, and the unwillingness to concede on even on small points, shows that when we mix emotion (animals rights) with other more data driven topics, its can muddy the water.

There is no such thing as perfection. I think it is important that we understand that some people will not concede on some points. I, for one, will never concede that it is ethical to exploit or harm an animal if it is not necessary. I have made numerous concessions on the health and environmental aspects of a plant-based diet. I try to remain as objective as I can on those issues. If the science is showing what benefits can be accrued, then that is what I'll share here. 

 

But if you cannot even accept people who agree with 90% of the ideas on this thread, maybe just maybe that is a problem in itself. 

I welcome people who agree, to whatever degree. I also welcome people to take action and then to make some changes in their life, based on the discussions we've had here - much like Pieter and yourself have done. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Odinson

[Imploder]

Ok, I'll be that guy. How the heck do you embed gifs in a rreply?!? That's awesome.

[Odinson]

Here is a good quality study.

 

Take the time to read it. 

 

"Health effects of vegan diets" by 

 

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

 

This literature review (not a study) is quite balanced. The main message is that if you're following a plant-based diet, you're going to have a decrease in a number of risk factors, BUT you need to make sure that you plan the diet (this is only relevant, in my experience, in the early phases) and watch out for the key nutrients mentioned. 

 

"Cross-sectional and longitudinal population-based studies published within the past 2 decades suggest no differences in bone mineral density (BMD), for both trabecular and cortical bone, between omnivores and lactoovovegetarians (40). More recent studies with postmenopausal Asian women showed spine or hip BMD was significantly lower in long-term vegans (41, 42). Those Asian women, who were vegetarian for religious reasons, had low intakes of protein and calcium. An inadequate protein and low calcium intake has been shown to be associated with bone loss and fractures at the hip and spine in the elderly (43, 44). Adequate calcium intake may be a problem for vegans. Although lactoovovegetarians generally consume adequate amounts of calcium, vegans typically fall short of the recommended daily intake for calcium (8, 45, 46). Results from the EPIC-Oxford study provide good evidence that the risk of bone fractures for vegetarians was similar to that of omnivores (46). The higher risk of bone fracture seen in vegans appears to be a consequence of a lower mean calcium intake. No difference was observed between the fracture rates of the vegans who consumed >525 mg calcium/d and the omnivore fracture rates (46)."

From the article

 

I recommend that you read the dicussion section of the EPIC-Oxford study: https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299475

 

The bold bit above just goes to show that vegans who make sure that they eat calcium rich foods, don't have a different fracture rates than omnivores. Again, it takes some planning, but it's not rocket science. 

[Escapee..]

Ok, I'll be that guy. How the heck do you embed gifs in a rreply?!? That's awesome.

 

 

[Odinson]

Ok, I'll be that guy. How the heck do you embed gifs in a rreply?!? That's awesome.

[Goodbadugly]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1090841605706211329

You need help

[Imploder]

Ok, I'll be that guy. How the heck do you embed gifs in a rreply?!? That's awesome.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

[Odinson]

Like this

 

 

 

 

Ok, I'll be that guy. How the heck do you embed gifs in a rreply?!? That's awesome.

 

 

 

 

So close, yet so far... 

 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

[Imploder]

LOL! How to derail a thread in three easy steps.

 

Sorry Odi. 

 

As you were guys......

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

LOL! How to derail a thread in three easy steps.

 

Sorry Odi. 

 

As you were guys......

[Edition 507]

When I say veganism is unnatural it is from a dietary perspective. We are omnivores not herbivores. Being a herbivore (only eating plant material) for a human is as unnatural as a lion being a herbivore or a cow being an carnivore. It is not their natural diet, they would die.

Humans have evolved eating meat, and have actually evolved because we ate meat. Our evolutionary success has primarily been attributed to an ancestral diet change to include meat. Consuming highly nutritious and calorie dense meat is what fuelled our rapid evolutionary development compared to our primate cousins. If we had continued to munch on bananas we would still be apes swinging in trees.

What this evolution means is that the consumption of meat has become a vital prerequisite for optimum health and development which makes it understandable that a diet excluding meat is nutritionally deficient for our needs, resulting in malnutrition.

So veganism is essentially self-imposed malnourishment. We all know that malnutrition results in stunted physical and mental development and dulls physical and mental prowess.

I put it to you that veganism is unnatural as it is based purely on an ideological or ethical principle that goes against our natural development and the path that brought us to our current state of human existence.