The Veganism Thread

[Eldron]

When I say veganism is unnatural it is from a dietary perspective. We are omnivores not herbivores. Being a herbivore (only eating plant material) for a human is as unnatural as a lion being a herbivore or a cow being an carnivore. It is not their natural diet, they would die.

Humans have evolved eating meat, and have actually evolved because we ate meat. Our evolutionary success has primarily been attributed to an ancestral diet change to include meat. Consuming highly nutritious and calorie dense meat is what fuelled our rapid evolutionary development compared to our primate cousins. If we had continued to munch on bananas we would still be apes swinging in trees.

What this evolution means is that the consumption of meat has become a vital prerequisite for optimum health and development which makes it understandable that a diet excluding meat is nutritionally deficient for our needs, resulting in malnutrition.

So veganism is essentially self-imposed malnourishment. We all know that malnutrition results in stunted physical and mental development and dulls physical and mental prowess.

I put it to you that veganism is unnatural as it is based purely on an ideological or ethical principle that goes against our natural development and the path that brought us to our current state of human existence.  

 

I agree with you...in a way.

 

This was true before we had "food science" - when certain things like protein, fibre etc were only available in the foods we ate - we were forced to eat those foods. Now that we have a multi trillion Rand food industry we can get whatever vitamin and mineral we desire at any time.

 

In theory you're right but practically we can choose to eat anything we want and still have the right balance of nutrition if we do a little mathematics and supplementation. Hell we could all be pescafruitarians and with a few trips to the nutritionist and the pharmacy we could live full well nutritionally perfect lived.

 

One could argue that we're living more unnaturally thanks to processed foods than veganism!

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

100% agreed with you, Eldron. Especially that last bit!

[Patchelicious]

If it wasn’t for meat, humans would never have evolved to where we could make cognitive choices.

[Eldron]

If it wasn’t for meat, humans would never have evolved to where we could make cognitive choices.

 

All it took was meat and opposable thumbs to be number 1 on the food chain!

[Patchelicious]

One could argue that we're living more unnaturally thanks to processed foods than veganism!

So both are unnatural, one just more so than the other?

[Odinson]

If it wasn’t for meat, humans would never have evolved to where we could make cognitive choices.

 

 

All it took was meat and opposable thumbs to be number 1 on the food chain!

 

I wonder what our brains run on? 

 

Does anyone know where our meat eating brothers and sisters, the Neanderthals and Erecti are? 

[Odinson]

If it wasn’t for meat, humans would never have evolved to where we could make cognitive choices.

 

All animals make cognitive choices - we just have the most advanced ability (to our knowledge) to reason about it. 

[Eldron]

I wonder what our brains run on? 

 

Does anyone know where our meat eating brothers and sisters, the Neanderthals and Erecti are? 

 

My comment was facetious but the amino acid to glucose pathway is reversible so meat eaters can fuel their brain without simple sugars. 

[Chris_]

When I say veganism is unnatural it is from a dietary perspective. We are omnivores not herbivores. Being a herbivore (only eating plant material) for a human is as unnatural as a lion being a herbivore or a cow being an carnivore. It is not their natural diet, they would die.

Humans have evolved eating meat, and have actually evolved because we ate meat. Our evolutionary success has primarily been attributed to an ancestral diet change to include meat. Consuming highly nutritious and calorie dense meat is what fuelled our rapid evolutionary development compared to our primate cousins. If we had continued to munch on bananas we would still be apes swinging in trees.

What this evolution means is that the consumption of meat has become a vital prerequisite for optimum health and development which makes it understandable that a diet excluding meat is nutritionally deficient for our needs, resulting in malnutrition.

So veganism is essentially self-imposed malnourishment. We all know that malnutrition results in stunted physical and mental development and dulls physical and mental prowess.

I put it to you that veganism is unnatural as it is based purely on an ideological or ethical principle that goes against our natural development and the path that brought us to our current state of human existence.  

 

Lets assume everything you say here is correct wrt health.

 

You say '  veganism is unnatural as it is based purely on an ideological or ethical principle', moving forward to today, do you think its time to ask yourself - what is the value of.. an animal, 100 animals, a million animals, a species, a million species, a river, an ocean...

 

As such superior minds should we not take into account those other creatures and environments around us? Is an ethical way of living not a positive move, natural or unnatural? Which although debatable still threatens our very clever minds very existence on the planet?

[Patchelicious]

I wonder what our brains run on?

 

Does anyone know where our meat eating brothers and sisters, the Neanderthals and Erecti are?

Dead, along with a myriad of our herbivore cousins too.

 

Do you hate meat so much, that you are going to deny the role cooked meat played in our evolution?

[Odinson]

The whole 'but evolution tho' argument is nothing more than a straw-man. 

 

We're all here, in 2019 CE, typing on plastic and metal computers, dressed in plastic clothes, eating food made in a high tech factory somewhere far away and have nary a concern for invading tribes, starvation or angry gods. 

 

We need to consider our current context and what we need to do as a species now. 

[Odinson]

Dead, along with a myriad of our herbivore cousins too.

 

Do you hate meat so much, that you are going to deny the role cooked meat played in our evolution?

 

Saying 'meat gave us big brains' is incredibly reductionary. No one knows exactly what caused our increase in intelligence. It could've been a coalescence of factors, including social competition, environmental, gene expression, random genetic mutation, diet, etc. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Saying 'meat gave us big brains' is incredibly reductionary. No one knows exactly what caused our increase in intelligence. It could've been a coalescence of factors, including social competition, environmental, gene expression, random genetic mutation, diet, etc. 

A multitude of factors. Multi-faceted incremental jumps in intelligence, tied to things LIFE fire and tools and cooked meat and and and

[GrahamS2]

Saying 'meat gave us big brains' is incredibly reductionary. No one knows exactly what caused our increase in intelligence. It could've been a coalescence of factors, including social competition, environmental, gene expression, random genetic mutation, diet, etc. 

Well it certainly wasn't eating a plant-based diet.

 

Sorry, I had to. It's late on a Friday  

Edited February 1, 2019 by GrahamS2

[_David_]

A good read -The Evolution of Diet:

 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/evolution-of-diet/

 

 

 

As we look to 2050, when we’ll need to feed two billion more people, the question of which diet is best has taken on new urgency. The foods we choose to eat in the coming decades will have dramatic ramifications for the planet. Simply put, a diet that revolves around meat and dairy, a way of eating that’s on the rise throughout the developing world, will take a greater toll on the world’s resources than one that revolves around unrefined grains, nuts, fruits, and vegetables.

 

 

....there is no one ideal human diet. Aiello and Leonard say the real hallmark of being human isn’t our taste for meat but our ability to adapt to many habitats—and to be able to combine many different foods to create many healthy diets. Unfortunately the modern Western diet does not appear to be one of them.

[Patchelicious]

The whole 'but evolution tho' argument is nothing more than a straw-man.

 

We're all here, in 2019 CE, typing on plastic and metal computers, dressed in plastic clothes, eating food made in a high tech factory somewhere far away and have nary a concern for invading tribes, starvation or angry gods.

 

We need to consider our current context and what we need to do as a species now.

It’s not an argument, it’s a fact. We can’t just dismiss t because it doesn’t suit our world view.