The Abortion Issue

[eddy]

this whole debate really centers around one issue and that is at which point does a life become a human life.

 

//cut//

 

religious people will tell you the child has a soul at conception, but non religious will use arguments about survival outside the womb etc.

 

And then there is the belief that life only truly starts when your dog dies and your children leave home.....

[eddy]

I assume you speak for yourself.

 

And are you saying all women are responsible?

 

No, I speak as an observer of mankind. But you clearly did not understand the point so I will make it simple.

 

When a man and a woman have an unplanned pregnancy it is a fundamentally lifechanging occurrence for the woman with overwhelmingly negative consequences whilst it is at worst an inconvenience for the man.

 

The man does not get stoned to death for example, or get killed by his brothers for bringing shame on the family. He quietly has a marriage to a pure girl arranged for him instead.

 

He is not forced to leave school and drop out of education. He can carry on and finish his education, take a job anywhere in the world whist she spends her youth looking after a baby alone and with curtailed education.

 

He can date to his heart's content, find a girl, marry, start a family whilst she is burdened with the "single mother" tag and all its connotations. She has to find a "man who will raise another's bastard child".

 

The worst that can happen to him is that he may (if it is a civilized society) be expected to pay towards the support of his child.

 

etc, etc. 

 

When we suffer equal consequences, we get an equal say.

[Red Robin]

I appreciate the stories of those who came to love their children conceived from rape and I'm glad it worked for them.

I'm equally glad I got to support my friend's teenage sister when she was hijacked and gang raped and that she had a choice to terminate the result of that crime in a safe hospital environment. But she had the choice and to have that choice taken away from her would have been wrong.

[fabes]

Robbie brought it in way before, Fabes. 

 

BTW - atheism isn't a religion. It's absence of religion. We can still believe in / stand for / immerse ourselves in other things, but "non believers" just don't believe in one more god than you. The rise of militant atheism (as it's called) is in direct response to the continual forcing of religion down everyone's throats. It's nothing more than a reply saying leave us the fk alone with your sky-daddy bullcrap, and stop making out as if everyone non-religious is somehow morally / ethically / socially stunted or corrupt.

 

And ironically force your “non-belief” system on everyone and also ironically want to be left alone yet continually trying to prove your “belief-system” is in fact the correct belief system.

Nobody has forced anything on you yet you have no respect for someone else’s beliefs or religion or whatever you want to call it.

[Skubarra]

And ironically force your “non-belief” system on everyone and also ironically want to be left alone yet continually trying to prove your “belief-system” is in fact the correct belief system.

Nobody has forced anything on you yet you have no respect for someone else’s beliefs or religion or whatever you want to call it.

 

Well under our current system you can choose not to have an abortion if it is against your religious beliefs, nobody can force you to have an abortion. However if you & Robbie have your way everyone will be forced to to conform to your religious views on abortion, no choice to opt-out from your world view.

 

So I would respectfully disagree that the non-religious okes are the ones forcing their "non-belief system" on you.

[fabes]

Well under our current system you can choose not to have an abortion if it is against your religious beliefs, nobody can force you to have an abortion. However if you & Robbie have your way everyone will be forced to to conform to your religious views on abortion, no choice to opt-out from your world view.

 

So I would respectfully disagree that the non-religious okes are the ones forcing their "non-belief system" on you.

My religious views? Point me in the direction of those please

[Skubarra]

My religious views? Point me in the direction of those please

 

Ok world view, viewpoint, belief system, opinion - apply whatever synonym is least offensive to you

[fabes]

Ok world view, viewpoint, belief system, opinion - apply whatever synonym is least offensive to you

I haven’t used religion to back up my opinion on abortion.

[Skubarra]

I haven’t used religion to back up my opinion on abortion.

 

Ok - again, swop religion for beliefs or opinion - doesn't change the point I'm making

[IceCreamMan]

No, I speak as an observer of mankind. But you clearly did not understand the point so I will make it simple.

 

When a man and a woman have an unplanned pregnancy it is a fundamentally lifechanging occurrence for the woman with overwhelmingly negative consequences whilst it is at worst an inconvenience for the man.

 

The man does not get stoned to death for example, or get killed by his brothers for bringing shame on the family. He quietly has a marriage to a pure girl arranged for him instead.

 

He is not forced to leave school and drop out of education. He can carry on and finish his education, take a job anywhere in the world whist she spends her youth looking after a baby alone and with curtailed education.

 

He can date to his heart's content, find a girl, marry, start a family whilst she is burdened with the "single mother" tag and all its connotations. She has to find a "man who will raise another's bastard child".

 

The worst that can happen to him is that he may (if it is a civilized society) be expected to pay towards the support of his child.

 

etc, etc.

 

When we suffer equal consequences, we get an equal say.

Oh really.

 

Have you completely lost your mind?

 

Start a thread about those cultures that stone an kill their daughters. This is about abortion not sex.

[Gen]

Oh really.

 

Have you completely lost your mind?

 

Start a thread about those cultures that stone an kill their daughters. This is about abortion not sex.

So only western culture applies to this discussion....okay then.

 

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[IceCreamMan]

So only western culture applies to this discussion....okay then.

 

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Abortion is a western culture reality.

 

The topic is abortion , not cultures that stone girls for fornication outside of marriage or honour killings etc. I dare say that abortion in those societies are illicit anyway.

[Stretch]

May I ask if she aborted or had the baby?

 

Fabes - I am interested to your opinion on my response to this question 

[Stretch]

for those against legalising abortion I am interested in what you take from this

 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

And ironically force your “non-belief” system on everyone and also ironically want to be left alone yet continually trying to prove your “belief-system” is in fact the correct belief system.

Nobody has forced anything on you yet you have no respect for someone else’s beliefs or religion or whatever you want to call it.

I don't have to have respect for their beliefs. I can respect the person while also abhorring their religious beliefs. I'm not trying to prove anything at all, here, but when one is faced with a continual barrage from religious zealots (the large majority of believers don't fit into this category) one tends to have to defend their world view and prevent religion from encroaching on their lives, schooling, government and so on. 

 

In this instance, Robbie's religion is the very thing that he would base his decision to prevent access to safe abortion facilities. Again, legalisation of abortion doesn't magically increase the amount of women who opt to have an abortion. It just pushes them to the periphery, where they need to consult back-room abortionists and unnecessarily risk their lives in the process. 

[Skubarra]

 

In this instance, Robbie's religion is the very thing that he would base his decision to prevent access to safe abortion facilities. 

 

Since we are talking irony, another irony is that the Bible is very ambiguous on the topic of abortion. You can choose to argue pro-choice if you pick the right scriptures.