The Abortion Issue

[Edition 507]

You will be conscious,aware and knowledgeable, yes.

 

You will die in as much as your earthly body ceased to exist. Death as we know it, ergo, no heartbeat.

 

Your spirit lives on, as it is from God to begin with. Your spirit is made in His Image, eternal, conscious, self-aware, and able to reason and think. This returns to Him, and He will decide that spirit's fate.

Cool, but getting back to my 5 day old fertilized ovum. We assume that the pregnancy is viable and the mother of this ovum is a good christian woman, but unfortunately she is a bit dozy and steps off the pavement only to be hit by a bus and killed. 

 

Obviously both her and the unborn child in her belly would go to heaven.

 

It is very easy to conceptualize the dead woman being conscious, self-aware and able to reason and think in heaven, but my mind is unable to picture the same thing with a bunch of cells. 

 

Now this ability to be conscious, self-aware and able to reason and think in heaven is an absolutely critical point for religions such as Christianity and Islam, as if we did not have these abilities we would not know we were in heaven and therefore there would be no evident reward waiting for us for following either of these religions. On the flip side, if we were not self-aware and conscious then God would not be able to punish us by torturing us in hell forever, and hence the bible or quran would become meaningless mumbo jumbo.

 

Back to my 5 day old fertilized ovum, how is it going to be self-aware, reason, think and be conscious in heaven?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I am not forcing anything, on anyone? You can believe as you want. I am merely discussing why I see things the way I do.

 

I am not intolerant of your belief. You can choose to live as you want, and if you want to abort your unborn child, that is your choice. I won't support you, but if that is what you want, then do it.

 

People mistake the concept of "tolerance".

 

I am allowed to disagree with you, and discuss my reason for such disagreement, without hindering you to live as you want. - that is tolerance.

 

 

Ah, so you're pro choice then. Cool. 

 

EDIT: You see, though? You carry on saying that the anti abortion movement is GOOD, and you will support anyone who wants to ban it. But that doesn't gel with the above statement. 

 

So which is it. Are you for allowing people the choice to do what they feel is the right thing, or are you for denying them the choice?

 

IE: Pro choice, or anti choice?

[Robbie Stewart]

Your source? There are several versions of the "reason" for his death, that being one of them

 

The Bible is not a reputable source, for many reasons. 

 

Just wow. How on earth can you claim that I am not allowed to refer to the Bible as a reputable source?

[Stretch]

okay, you submit Jesus is real. Now, He's dead. Again, forget about His ressurection for a minute.

 

What would make his followers to forsake a life of comfort to travel the known world to spread His story, at the expense of beatings, scourging, prison, and eventually death by torture for just about all of them.

 

Who would be willing to be killed for someone who is already dead?

 

Take Peter, who denied Christ on the eve of His arrest. Who fled the scene, and went fishing in Galilee. This man, who turned coward, turned around, marched back to Jerusalem, and faced the same people who convicted Jesus to death. Why? What would convince him to change his mind. We already know he was a yellow coat coward? Why the aboutface turn to courage and conviction?

Why did Reverend Jim Jones followers knowingly allow themselves to be killed for him? Why do suicide bombers kill themselves for their God? Why did the SS do everything they did for the beliefs a man... Because they were persuaded to by that person.

 

If everyone around you says something happened then people believe it despite never seeing it for themselves. Hearsay is powerful and dangerous

[Stretch]

My apologies - I clearly misunderstood your previous posts. Didn't realise you were pro-choice.

Oh damn!

[Skubarra]

Nope. He repeatedly stated that he is not here to force anything onto anyone. In fact, he did well in providing an opinion and the associated belief system that he prefers to go with and in no forceful or offensive terms.

 

He is celebrating a law banning abortion though. A law that forces his particular worldview on everyone living in that state. As others have stated pro-choice and pro-abortion is not the same thing.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

From the biblical discourse, actually He did hand himself over. He tells his disciples way before the event that He is going to be crucified, and on the third day He will rise again. He says that no one takes His life from Him, He lays it down, and that He has authority from the Father to lay down His life, and to take it back up again - John 10:18

 

In the Garden of Gethsemane, when they were approached by the temple police to arrest Him, He asked them who they were looking for. They replied that they were looking for Jesus of Nazareth. He replied with "I AM He", to which they all fell to the ground  -John 18:6.

 

He was showing them that they do not take Him, He submits to them.

The bible is not adequate source material

[Gen]

From the biblical discourse, actually He did hand himself over. He tells his disciples way before the event that He is going to be crucified, and on the third day He will rise again. He says that no one takes His life from Him, He lays it down, and that He has authority from the Father to lay down His life, and to take it back up again - John 10:18

 

In the Garden of Gethsemane, when they were approached by the temple police to arrest Him, He asked them who they were looking for. They replied that they were looking for Jesus of Nazareth. He replied with "I AM He", to which they all fell to the ground -John 18:6.

 

He was showing them that they do not take Him, He submits to them.

No you said he handed himself over even after Pilates declared him innocent, at that point he had no choice in the matter the vote went to the people they didn't want him freed.

[Robbie Stewart]

Cool, but getting back to my 5 day old fertilized ovum. We assume that the pregnancy is viable and the mother of this ovum is a good christian woman, but unfortunately she is a bit dozy and steps off the pavement only to be hit by a bus and killed. 

 

Obviously both her and the unborn child in her belly would go to heaven.

 

It is very easy to conceptualize the dead woman being conscious, self-aware and able to reason and think in heaven, but my mind is unable to picture the same thing with a bunch of cells. 

 

Now this ability to be conscious, self-aware and able to reason and think in heaven is an absolutely critical point for religions such as Christianity and Islam, as if we did not have these abilities we would not know we were in heaven and therefore there would be no evident reward waiting for us for following either of these religions. On the flip side, if we were not self-aware and conscious then God would not be able to punish us by torturing us in hell forever, and hence the bible or quran would become meaningless mumbo jumbo.

 

Back to my 5 day old fertilized ovum, how is it going to be self-aware, reason, think and be conscious in heaven?

 

I am not God. I can't answer that question. I am not trying to prove that a even 5 second old ovum has a spirit, as God is the one who breathes life into man. I am trying to get the point across that a fertilized ovum will result in a human being. A human being with a body, a mind (soul) and a spirit which comes from God, is made in His image, and will ultimately return to Him. I leave the allocations of the spirits to Him. I am not the Judge, God is.

[Robbie Stewart]

The bible is not adequate source material

 

Why not? You can't make such a claim without supporting it.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Just wow. How on earth can you claim that I am not allowed to refer to the Bible as a reputable source?

Because large parts of it are unverifiable; it's full of falsifiable assertions; it was written many decades after teh events were purported to have happened; it has been amended endlessly to suit religious and royal leaders of the times etc etc.

[Andrew Steer]

Indeed my friend, indeed.

 

Ps - what gives you the autority to "play nicely" up to a point. This is a forum of adults, not bullies.

If I am a bully, then what would you call someone advocating to take, possibly the biggest decision of someones life, away from them?

 

 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Why not? You can't make such a claim without supporting it.

Aaaaah, but the burden of proof is on religious folk to prove its veracity. Not the other way around. There are parts of it which hold some truth, but the majority of it is either falsifiable or unverifiable. 

[Robbie Stewart]

No you said he handed himself over even after Pilates declared him innocent, at that point he had no choice in the matter the vote went to the people they didn't want him freed.

 

Are we going to argue semantics now? To the point of nitpicking what I said?

 

Does that in any way detract from the statement Christ Himself made when He told His disciples, BEFORE the event, when they were approximately 200-300 km away?

[Andrew Steer]

Robbie, these guys all have lots of followers... how do you know they are not the Messiah?

 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/08/new-messiahs-jesus-christ-second-coming-photos/

[Robbie Stewart]

Aaaaah, but the burden of proof is on religious folk to prove its veracity. Not the other way around. There are parts of it which hold some truth, but the majority of it is either falsifiable or unverifiable. 

 

Really? You are going to go with that? I am supposed to provide the burden of proof, yet I am not allowed to reference the whole reason for this discussion, because YOU say that it is untrustworthy and falsified?

 

All I am hearing is that if I had to provide evidence to the contrary, you will readily reject it, since your mind is made up.