The Abortion Issue

[The Ouzo]

So, to keep this discussion going, and not peeve off a bunch of folks in the General Election 2019 thread, this thread to have a civil discussion about a very sensitive topic.

 

Some basic rules:

 

Let's try keep things civil. I accede this is an emotive topic, so let's at least try.

Let's play the ball, and not the man.

Let's not let this thread degenerate into name-calling etc.

 

Now that that's cleared up, you all by now know I am against it, and will not support any person, institute or political party that approves of it.

 

My main reason, other than it being a conscience vote on my part, is that after 14 years of trying everything under the sun, I have a nearly 10 month old baby girl who is the center of my universe. 

 

At 22/23 weeks, our Ob/Gyn told us she was not viable, and we would do well to consider termination.

 

She is perfect in every sense of the word, with ZERO defects. If I listened to my wife's doctor...I don't even want to think about it.

I havent read the rest of this thread , but let me respond to this.

 

As someone that has been in this situation I will never judge a persons decision, provided they have taken all the steps possible to arrive at an educated point.

 

We went through similar, had all the emotions and moral dilemmas, but right from the time the first diagnosis was given to us we were determined to a) be as educated as possible about the condition, the good, the bad, the probabilities etc.

b) be as close to 100% certain that the diagnosis was correct

before we made any decisions.

As we were only on hospital plan and not medical aid we just about maxed out our credit cards getting test after test done, each one confirming the diagnosis, and each time being told there is a more advanced test to get a more certain diagnosis. Until eventually we exhausted all possible tests and had to make the most difficult decision anyone could possibly make.

 

So I would never condone a blanket ban abortions ruling, but certainly would add some huge criteria that need to be met before anyone can go that route.

[Skubarra]

Proper education on birth control and sex to both boys and girls.

 

Morning after pill at clinics.

 

Male and female birth control more freely available to poor communities.

 

I certainly agree these things will help to reduce the need abortions (and must be done). But I can't imagine that preventive measures like these on it's own will solve the problem.

[Stretch]

I havent read the rest of this thread , but let me respond to this.

 

As someone that has been in this situation I will never judge a persons decision, provided they have taken all the steps possible to arrive at an educated point.

 

We went through similar, had all the emotions and moral dilemmas, but right from the time the first diagnosis was given to us we were determined to a) be as educated as possible about the condition, the good, the bad, the probabilities etc.

b) be as close to 100% certain that the diagnosis was correct

before we made any decisions.

As we were only on hospital plan and not medical aid we just about maxed out our credit cards getting test after test done, each one confirming the diagnosis, and each time being told there is a more advanced test to get a more certain diagnosis. Until eventually we exhausted all possible tests and had to make the most difficult decision anyone could possibly make.

 

So I would never condone a blanket ban abortions ruling, but certainly would add some huge criteria that need to be met before anyone can go that route.

 

And i think this is what people do not seem understand. You don't just wake up and say "its a good day for an abortion". It is an emotionally taxing and difficult situation that not even mothers can sometimes comprehend. The woman making that choice is really the only one who can know. And trust me, I have listened to countless confessions and recounts about people who have made that decision to terminate and it is abundantly clear that it is not something that someone comes to lightly.

 

The biggest factor though for you was that once you had sat and discussed and eventually come to the decision that you made, you were able to make use of a professional medical facility in your own country with your own family nearby for support. People who live in countries where it is not legal do not have that luxury

[Red Robin]

I am pro choice.

I always have been.

I respect that whilst my choice personally may be to not abort it is another's choice to terminate. Doesn't make either choice wrong, just different choices.

[fabes]

What on this planet gives you the right to tell a woman who is pregnant what to do? No matter what the reason.

What on this planet gives you the right to kill a tiny human being with a heart beat?

 

This world has gone absolutely mad! It’s all about giving people choices now etc.

 

If you don’t want kids exercise your right to use contraception

 

I do feel exceptions should be made for health reasons and rape etc. but not the 95% of people just using abortion clinics like condoms should be used

[Eldron]

Her body - her choice.

 

None of us here (or anybody else) get a say in the matter.

[fabes]

Never said it was my choice. I said it was the womans. To me... it does not matter why they are doing it. It is their choice. The exact same reason you don't tell people who to vote for. It is their choice. That is my take on it. I also believe there is a time frame involved. I don't know exactly but I believe up to 2 months!

Every choice has a consequence- good or bad.

 

There is no consequence however for a bad choice in this argument. A pregnant woman wanting to abort though is taking the choice away from a tiny soul with a heart beat. A heart beat develops at4-6 weeks.

[Robbie Stewart]

Every choice has a consequence- good or bad.

 

There is no consequence however for a bad choice in this argument. A pregnant woman wanting to abort though is taking the choice away from a tiny soul with a heart beat. A heart beat develops at4-6 weeks.

When we found out we were expecting, our GP sent us to the Ob/Gyn, who scanned and told us she was 5 weeks along. What brought me to tears was hearing that little heart beat. That was a little human in there.

[Robbie Stewart]

I havent read the rest of this thread , but let me respond to this.

 

As someone that has been in this situation I will never judge a persons decision, provided they have taken all the steps possible to arrive at an educated point.

 

We went through similar, had all the emotions and moral dilemmas, but right from the time the first diagnosis was given to us we were determined to a) be as educated as possible about the condition, the good, the bad, the probabilities etc.

b) be as close to 100% certain that the diagnosis was correct

before we made any decisions.

As we were only on hospital plan and not medical aid we just about maxed out our credit cards getting test after test done, each one confirming the diagnosis, and each time being told there is a more advanced test to get a more certain diagnosis. Until eventually we exhausted all possible tests and had to make the most difficult decision anyone could possibly make.

 

So I would never condone a blanket ban abortions ruling, but certainly would add some huge criteria that need to be met before anyone can go that route.

Thanks for sharing your view Ouzo. I am sorry you had to make that decision, and I am sure it never came easy.

 

You raise a thought provoking perspective, and I will concede that for pure medical reasons, perhaps a doctor might be given license to offer a choice, based on established and proven medical fact, as in your case.

 

I do take issue with people using what happened to you as justification to terminate a perfectly viable pregnancy. To me that's a lame duck excuse used by riding the coat tails of folks who have endured real grief, not mere discomfort.

 

Again, my condolences.

[Stretch]

 

 

You raise a thought provoking perspective, and I will concede that for pure medical reasons, perhaps a doctor might be given license to offer a choice, based on established and proven medical fact, as in your case.

.

Now what if your government has made it illegal for a doctor to do that? Because of that, That doctor has only one choice.. And that is to turn you away...Where does that leave you? What do you do?

[Robbie Stewart]

Testimony of a woman who had an abortion, proving that not all abortions are women's choice:

 

Even though I'm now against abortion and oppose its intended legalization—because I've experienced firsthand its disastrous consequences—I hadn't always felt this way. I used to be indifferent on the topic until I happened to have one, coerced. Back in 2001, I was 19 and I had recently entered the university. Life was fine for me, until I got pregnant. I'm not meaning maternity is something bad. In fact, I actually had wanted to be a mother and when I found out I was pregnant I got really excited, but the event set a precedent in my life, as my partner "didn't want to have any children" at the time, and he actually found a private clinic where an abortion could be performed for me without legal consequences. I didn't want to have it, and we argued a lot about it, and the discussion turned violent. It got to the point where he convinced me. It was too late when I noticed I had made the worst mistake in my life. I let my own child be killed because of a married jerk that dumped me afterwards. The pain I had was too bad. I had to quit college for a while, and got addicted to alcohol shortly after quitting school. Although I'm still hurt, I overcame my pain temporarily and ruined his marriage, just as he ruined my life. I'm still not able to heal my wounds. I was too young to realize I had messed up, but I thank God that he gave me a second chance to have a kid, which I didn't waste. In 2006 I had twins, which are the real loves of my life with a good and caring husband. Last but not least, I've heard a lot of times that abortion must be legalized because "women have the right to decide about their own body" or "it's a common thing and it'd be better to be done in safe and legal conditions," or because "the poor die in clandestine abortions." But, with regard to the first reason, it is a mockery to say so! The majority of abortions—like the one I had—are carried out through coercion. It’s been scientifically proved that the phoetus—as the abortion advocates call all of our descendants in a derogatory way—is actually a human being. Regarding the last point, the fact that it is something "common", does not make it good or desirable, much less something that deserves to be legalized.

 

Age: 36

Location: Porto Alegre, Brazil

Date: August 18, 2018

[Robbie Stewart]

 

Now what if your government has made it illegal for a doctor to do that? Because of that, That doctor has only one choice.. And that is to turn you away...Where does that leave you? What do you do?

My wife dies. If she is not legally allowed to abort, and the doctor cannot help her, she dies.

 

I want $ 100 000 000.00 in my bank account, and the fastest way to get it is by robbing a bank. But it's illegal. What must I do then?

 

But in all fairness, you are trying to paint me into a corner with a scenario that is extremy unlikely to occur.

[Stretch]

 

 

But in all fairness, you are trying to paint me into a corner with a scenario that is extremy unlikely to occur.

Because not all laws are just and sound.. And..

Unlikely? No .. Like I've said.. I've listened to hundreds of stories of people who have gone through this. Been turned away by their doctor because it was illegal even though termination was the thing to do in their case.

 

Like red robin said. Being pro choice of very different to being pro abortion. You can still be against abortion but be for choice.

[Robbie Stewart]

 

Because not all laws are just and sound.. And..

Unlikely? No .. Like I've said.. I've listened to hundreds of stories of people who have gone through this. Been turned away by their doctor because it was illegal even though termination was the thing to do in their case.

 

Like red robin said. Being pro choice of very different to being pro abortion. You can still be against abortion but be for choice.

 

Okay, let me concede that I understand your point. Under medical duress such as terminal pregnancy a case can be made for medically just termination. From a pure life and death perspective, there is possible merit. Someone is going to die, whether the baby or the mother.

 

I still do not agree with terminating for any reason that may not kill the mother.

[gummibear]

What on this planet gives you the right to tell a woman who is pregnant what to do? No matter what the reason.

It takes two to tango and she didn't get knocked up on her own.Shouldn't the father have a say in what happens to his baby??

[Stretch]

Okay, let me concede that I understand your point. Under medical duress such as terminal pregnancy a case can be made for medically just termination. From a pure life and death perspective, there is possible merit. Someone is going to die, whether the baby or the mother.

 

I still do not agree with terminating for any reason that may not kill the mother.

And this is the point I'm trying to get across. It's not really an abortion issue.. Its a choice issue. In this whole discussion I have not once given you my view on abortion because it's not relevant to the discussion. What I have done is given you my view on the legality of abortion and as I've clearly stated I am all in favour of a government that affords an individual to make their own choice in that matter.