The Abortion Issue

[Stretch]

Except sex isin't just for procreation is it.

 

Know this. Don't assume it's a willy nilly decision for any woman, no matter the reason she decides to abort. It's physically and emotionally traumatic.

I've come to realise that some on here honestly believe that having an abortion is like getting a piercing of something

[Odinson]

Robbie & Co. 

 

What is your ideal world in regards to abortion? If you had the power to decide, what would you allow and what not? 

[eddy]

My concern is that the foetus is a 50 50 thing yet the man has no say either way. This is not acceptable in this modern egalitarian world.

 

When us men have shown that we take equal responsibility for and carry an equal part of the lifelong burdon of an unwanted pregnancy (including but not limited to dropping out of education, social stigmatisation and rejection, reduced life choices etc.) we get to have an equal say.

[fabes]

Fabes... You are so off the mark. Ireland had that... Abortion only to save a mother's life.. It still didn't work... What's your point? You can't have choice with exceptions.. It's either black or white

 

Secondly.. You, like a few others on this thread are only focussing on people having abortions because a pregnancy didn't suit them at that time.... That's not the only reason why people need to terminate... There are many valid reasons where the mother's life is not in danger... But a termination is medically the best option

 

Thirdly.. That person where the pregnancy didn't suit their lifestyle... They are going to terminate regardless.. Statistics support this. Would you prefer they did if safely and with the support of loved ones.. Or alone in another country amongst people they don't know?.. Or god forbid.. At an illegal back alley abortion clinic.

 

Ironically South Africa has some of the best statistics around abortion being legal Vs illegal. I bet your have never ever investigated what those statistics show.

Black or white you say? Don’t want a baby don’t have unprotected sex. End of story.

And in everyday life there are lots of laws and rules with exceptions so I do not see why exceptions can’t be included in this debate.

[Andrew Steer]

If you don't want to become pregnant, don't have intercourse. 

 

Problem solved. 

100's of millions of people have 'safe' intercourse every single day with no intention of getting pregnant... but you know what, some of them do. Must they then take on the biggest responsibility on this planet and raise a child because one 'slipped past the goalie'?

 

There are also millions of people on this earth who do not wish to have children and who certainly shouldn't have children. They're also not going to stop having intercourse, and there is always a risk.

 

Raising a child is a magical blessing, but it's also a huge undertaking that should be respected and not forced on someone - especially by others. That's not fair on the child either.

 

I don't think anyone has all the answers, I don't think anyone would ever consider it an easy decision... but let people decide for themselves and live with the consequences.

 

It's a strange old world we live in these days, you've got kids losing their virginity on average at 12, and we know how responsible 12yr olds are! Where 16yr olds are legally allowed to have sexual intercourse, and we know how responsible our little teens are. It's really just not that simple and straight forward, no matter how simple some might want it to be.

 

Anyways, not going to change anyone's views here 

 

EDIT: Corrected a factual inaccuracy in my post 

[MTBeer]

100's of millions of people have 'safe' intercourse every single day with no intention of getting pregnant... but you know what, some of them do. Must they then take on the biggest responsibility on this planet and raise a child because one 'slipped past the goalie'?

 

There are also millions of people on this earth who do not wish to have children and who certainly shouldn't have children. They're also not going to stop having intercourse, and there is always a risk.

 

Raising a child is a magical blessing, but it's also a huge undertaking that should be respected and not forced on someone - especially by others. That's not fair on the child either.

 

I don't think anyone has all the answers, I don't think anyone would ever consider it an easy decision... but let people decide for themselves and live with the consequences.

 

It's a strange old world we live in these days, you've got kids losing their virginity on average at 12, and we know how responsible 12yr olds are! It's really just not that simple and straight forward, no matter how simple some might want it to be.

 

Anyways, not going to change anyone's views here 

average age? seriously?

[Robbie Stewart]

Robbie & Co. 

 

What is your ideal world in regards to abortion? If you had the power to decide, what would you allow and what not? 

 

I would not allow abortion. No further discussion.

 

In the extreme outlying circumstance raised by Stretch about termination of an unborn child to save a mother's life, I will let the doctor decide what is medically required to save her life, and if it entails terminating a pregnancy, then so be it. If a mother is in terminal danger, and by not terminating she dies, then I agree (reluctantly) to terminate, since the child is bound to die regardless whether it is aborted or not if the mother dies.

 

In no other scenario do I condone abortion.

 

Now, I expect the army to start attacking me for this, but will none the less not shirk away. I am a Christian, and this is directly in opposition to my world view. I am pro life. In history, there was Baal sacrifice and later child sacrifice to a pagan god called Molech. Parents would offer their children (read babies) alive to an altar in the shape of this god, with outstretched arms engulfing the child into a burning fire. There would be musicians making such loud music to drown out the screams of the children. God judged these nations by destruction, and today, it continues in the form of abortion.

 

I am not going to support any person, institute or political party which supports abortion, no matter what method of justification they use. People get all twisted about animal rights, and the rights of minorities etc., but these same people will deny a child the right to life.

 

I do not, and never will, see eye to eye with such hatred and evil.

 

There is simply no possible reason anyone can argue past the point that they just killed a defenseless child. 

[Andrew Steer]

average age? seriously?

Apologies, might have confused my facts... I think it was exposed to sex on average around 12 (probably Africa specific). And now of course in SA it's perfectly legal for 16yr olds to have intercourse... and my point remains, we know how sensible and careful 16yr olds are 

 

Edited my post, thanks 

[The Ouzo]

I don't agree with you in regards to giving a woman a "choice" whether to abort or not.

 

Unless she is in a medical emergency state, where not aborting would kill her, aborting for any other reason amounts to killing a human being. There is no mitigating circumstance to that in my view.

again, not having read past this post.

 

If you knew close to 100% certainty that the life span of the human you were about to give birth to would be measured in minutes and hours not days and years and that every minute it is alive it would be in pain, why would you subject a life to that ?

 

 

and whilst we're talking pro - choice here, what about the opposite end of the scale, the elderly.

We have a gent here at work, his dad died about a year back, his mom then deteriorated to the point where she really did not want to live anymore. Technically you can say she was committing suicide, would not eat or drink, would not even go to the bathroom.

She just wanted out. Where was her choice in the matter ? The law made it illegal for the medical profession to put her out of her misery, family guilt/morality/whatever you want to call it put pressure on her to stay alive but she wanted none of it.

She eventually died because she starved herself to death.

[MTBeer]

The worst thing you can do in this world is try and push your beliefs on another person. There is simply no excuse at all for that. Each to their own. 

problem is, that's a fundamental part of all(?) religions. And the anti-abortion people are mostly of the religious variety.

[forkie]

The worst thing you can do in this world is try and push your beliefs on another person. There is simply no excuse at all for that. Each to their own. 

so we should just stand back while inocents are killed because we are afraid to speak about our beliefs? reminds me of that saying about evil triumphing while good people do nothing

[forkie]

problem is, that's a fundamental part of all(?) religions. And the anti-abortion people are mostly of the religious variety.

maybe because the religious variety have a set of values which includes not killing innocent people

[Andrew Steer]

I would not allow abortion. No further discussion.

 

In the extreme outlying circumstance raised by Stretch about termination of an unborn child to save a mother's life, I will let the doctor decide what is medically required to save her life, and if it entails terminating a pregnancy, then so be it. If a mother is in terminal danger, and by not terminating she dies, then I agree (reluctantly) to terminate, since the child is bound to die regardless whether it is aborted or not if the mother dies.

 

In no other scenario do I condone abortion.

 

So a rape victim must carry the child of her rapist to full term? And then raise said child?

A mother must carry a child to full term that is likely to be still born?

A couple must bring a child into this world that is likely only going to know a life of suffering and pain and ultimately death?

A 13yr old girl who's folks where a bit late with the birds and the bees talk must drop out of school and raise a child with likely no partner and not too many positive future prospects?

[Odinson]

I would not allow abortion. No further discussion.

 

In the extreme outlying circumstance raised by Stretch about termination of an unborn child to save a mother's life, I will let the doctor decide what is medically required to save her life, and if it entails terminating a pregnancy, then so be it. If a mother is in terminal danger, and by not terminating she dies, then I agree (reluctantly) to terminate, since the child is bound to die regardless whether it is aborted or not if the mother dies.

 

In no other scenario do I condone abortion.

 

Now, I expect the army to start attacking me for this, but will none the less not shirk away. I am a Christian, and this is directly in opposition to my world view. I am pro life. In history, there was Baal sacrifice and later child sacrifice to a pagan god called Molech. Parents would offer their children (read babies) alive to an altar in the shape of this god, with outstretched arms engulfing the child into a burning fire. There would be musicians making such loud music to drown out the screams of the children. God judged these nations by destruction, and today, it continues in the form of abortion.

 

I am not going to support any person, institute or political party which supports abortion, no matter what method of justification they use. People get all twisted about animal rights, and the rights of minorities etc., but these same people will deny a child the right to life.

 

I do not, and never will, see eye to eye with such hatred and evil.

 

There is simply no possible reason anyone can argue past the point that they just killed a defenseless child. 

 

Robbie, I'm not going to touch on the motivations for your decisions, suffice to say that equating an abortion to a blood sacrifice of a Phoenician demon is absolutely insane. 

 

Where my views differ mostly with you is that I don't considered a fertilized egg a 'child'. A foetus is not a child, i.e. it does not have a right to life. It does not exist separate of the mother who carries it in her womb. Thus, an abortion is not the same as murdering a child. 

[Stretch]

Black or white you say? Don’t want a baby don’t have unprotected sex. End of story.

And in everyday life there are lots of laws and rules with exceptions so I do not see why exceptions can’t be included in this debate.

I know of someone (who's story I've quoted in this thread) who had a first child and suffered a massive bleed during labour. She was informed by the doctor that she could not get pregnant again because it is likely that she would heamorage. They used contraception but not everything is fool proof... She fell pregnant again.. Unexpectedly. What exception do you apply to that?

[The Ouzo]

just another point I want to raise.

alot of the discussion about it being the mothers choice as its her body are probably coming from people that have not been through it.

It took me close to 2 years and lots of therapy to get to the point where I was ready to try again for another child.