Power Failed FTP Test

[Karman de Lange]

Get yourself the 7 day free trail from Sufferfest and do the 4DP. There's some science behind why it's better than a normal FTP but you can read up on it: https://thesufferfest.com/pages/learn-more-4dp

 

Do the 4dp test, you wont regret it (well, your ftp is normally less but far more accurate )

 

Ramp test is nonsense .. my FTP was way off from my true 1 hr FTP .  I can put lot more power down for short period than I can do for 20min+. (I have really bad endurance power)

 

My FTP dropped by 10%, but then I could , for the first time, actually complete my prescribed sessions properly.. the hard intervals was harder and longer was achievable.

[cadenceblur]

will have a look thanks

[Ramrod]

When you say fresh cause you have done nothing since CTCT, if by nothing you really mean jackpooh and then try a FTP test that is heading for failure. you want to get some riding in, some intensity before hitting it.

 

Also, as a reference do 15min not 20 and take that complete value. I have found that being more accurate with athletes. Reason is 20min mentally is so taxing and get better data off 15min.

 

use it or don't.

John,

 

Just a question. Do you find that some athletes just test badly? I find that I am able to hold much higher values whilst out on the road but when I do the FTP test on the indoor I explode after 10min and am nowhere near the numbers I can hit whilst outside.  I have read about the whole theory of having 2 FTP settings (one for indoor and one for outdoor)

[lechatnoir]

When you say fresh cause you have done nothing since CTCT, if by nothing you really mean jackpooh and then try a FTP test that is heading for failure. you want to get some riding in, some intensity before hitting it.

 

Also, as a reference do 15min not 20 and take that complete value. I have found that being more accurate with athletes. Reason is 20min mentally is so taxing and get better data off 15min.

 

use it or don't.

 

on a 20min test, FTP is 95% of average, and on the 2x8 it's 90% of the combined average. What'd you recommend for the 15min? and yes, that last 5min takes a lot longer than 5min!

[Ramrod]

on a 20min test, FTP is 95% of average, and on the 2x8 it's 90% of the combined average. What'd you recommend for the 15min? and yes, that last 5min takes a lot longer than 5min!

Out of interest what is the recovery period between the 8mins?

[Karman de Lange]

The FTP thing is very rider depended.

 

If you have high MAP relative to FTP then the ramp, 8 minutes or even 10min test will overinflate your FTP.

 

if you like me, have lot higher NM relative to  FTP power, then the ramp test is just pointless as its to short to tax your endurance system that you are actually trying to test.

 

 

Only way to get your true 1 hr ftp is todo a 1 hr ftp test at steady power. (don't take race average power as there you get change to rest and replenish stores before next hard effort)

Edited March 19, 2019 by Karman de Lange

[J Wakefield]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but what do you mean by 15min and take the complete value? If the 20min formula is ave watts x 95% = FTP, what is the 15min formula? Same formula, but resulting in a more accurate representation from your experience? Thanks.

 

No question is silly.

 

Use complete value as in the 15min do not use a 95% formula on it. So if you have 250W after 15min use that. 

 

Also remember that the FTP value is from the day you do it, typically this is when you fresh and ready for the test. After 3 weeks of training, you carry fatigue and that value won't be 250W for example. So what I do is then set an athletes FTP lower and leave it for the duration of the season and ie 240W and when wanting to increase values for intervals adjust accordingly. 

[J Wakefield]

I recall you recommending a step/ramp test (in the TSS thread)

 

What's your take on the new Zwift ramp test? https://zwiftinsider.com/new-ramp-test/

 

reason being, with the ramp test I got a higher value than with the 2x8 min protocol (CTS).

 

 

 

 

 

The ramp test is what we use in the lab for males we start at 100W and increase 20W each minute until failure. From that we will get Peak Power value and FTP combined with the % your FTP is in relation to PPO.

 

I think any test has merit if you use the info that comes from it. But then you need to keep your testing protocol the same so you can compare each accurately. 

[Cheabb78]

No question is silly.

 

Use complete value as in the 15min do not use a 95% formula on it. So if you have 250W after 15min use that. 

 

Also remember that the FTP value is from the day you do it, typically this is when you fresh and ready for the test. After 3 weeks of training, you carry fatigue and that value won't be 250W for example. So what I do is then set an athletes FTP lower and leave it for the duration of the season and ie 240W and when wanting to increase values for intervals adjust accordingly. 

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated.

[bertusras]

No question is silly.

 

Use complete value as in the 15min do not use a 95% formula on it. So if you have 250W after 15min use that. 

 

Also remember that the FTP value is from the day you do it, typically this is when you fresh and ready for the test. After 3 weeks of training, you carry fatigue and that value won't be 250W for example. So what I do is then set an athletes FTP lower and leave it for the duration of the season and ie 240W and when wanting to increase values for intervals adjust accordingly. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but isn't your FTP the power you'd be able to sustain over an hour? Hence 95% of your 20 mins average power, and the 2x8 mins is 90%. Surely if you've done 250W for 15 mins you can't apply that to an hour?

Edited March 19, 2019 by bertusras

[Gnarly]

The ramp test is what we use in the lab for males we start at 100W and increase 20W each minute until failure. From that we will get Peak Power value and FTP combined with the % your FTP is in relation to PPO.

 

I think any test has merit if you use the info that comes from it. But then you need to keep your testing protocol the same so you can compare each accurately. 

 

What was your FTP before Sani? 

[fanievb]

The ramp test is what we use in the lab for males we start at 100W and increase 20W each minute until failure. From that we will get Peak Power value and FTP combined with the % your FTP is in relation to PPO.

 

I think any test has merit if you use the info that comes from it. But then you need to keep your testing protocol the same so you can compare each accurately. 

 

thank you John your input is always appreciated.

[J Wakefield]

John,

 

Just a question. Do you find that some athletes just test badly? I find that I am able to hold much higher values whilst out on the road but when I do the FTP test on the indoor I explode after 10min and am nowhere near the numbers I can hit whilst outside.  I have read about the whole theory of having 2 FTP settings (one for indoor and one for outdoor)

 

Typically the difference between indoors vs outdoors is 10%(lower) so yes you will find there will be a difference. Also remember that you must use the same PM for both tests. If you use a Kikr indoors rather use your PM on the road so its the same in and outdoors. 

 

If you have 2 settings then overall scores will not be 10% accurate so I would then use the value as I mentioned in another reply here that is maybe 10W less than the outside value.

[J Wakefield]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but isn't your FTP the power you'd be able to sustain over an hour? Hence 95% of your 20 mins average power, and the 2x8 mins is 90%. Surely if you've done 250W for 15 mins you can't apply that to an hour?

 

As an example if I do 330W for 8min which I can and we use 90% - 297W - I can promise you there is no way I can do that for 60. 

 

As with so many ways to determine a FTP value as shown in this thread and I personally have found that when using that 15min value works out pretty spot on when prescribing. 

[J Wakefield]

What was your FTP before Sani? 

 

Before was great, not so great during ;-)

[bertusras]

As an example if I do 330W for 8min which I can and we use 90% - 297W - I can promise you there is no way I can do that for 60. 

 

As with so many ways to determine a FTP value as shown in this thread and I personally have found that when using that 15min value works out pretty spot on when prescribing. 

 

Interesting, thanks, but I guess that's kind of my point. There's no way that I'll be able to sustain my 15 minute power, for an hour.

 

Edit: Unless you use that power for setting your training ranges, in which case it definitely makes sense. And you're not looking at FTP as it's true definition and rather as a gauge to structure your training.

Edited March 19, 2019 by bertusras