Johan Bornman Posted September 9, 2008 Share Planned obsolescence tends to work best when a producer has at least an oligopoly (market leader). Before introducing a planned obsolescence the producer has to know that the consumer is at least somewhat likely to buy a replacement from them. In these cases of planned obsolescence' date=' there is an information asymmetry between the producer, who knows how long the product was designed to last, and the consumer, who does not. When a market becomes more competitive, product lifespans tend to increase. ............... [/quote'] Nice explanation. As per the last line, watch product lifespans grow. Shimano's new wheels are designed the right way. I had the opportunity to dismantle an XTR wheel and boy, have they got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willehond Posted September 9, 2008 Share Wildehond I am very surprised at your statemunts here !! This the way you do bussiness ? No, read the details. It is a delicate balance between exploiting market dominance vs. consumer backlash. The concept is nearly a hundred years old and first encountered the term at university (I studied the commercial side of Engineering). Not an ethical business practice in my opinion, but who ever said ethics should soil good business?!Willehond2008-09-09 05:17:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtrider Posted September 9, 2008 Share Good business involves good ethics or did that change with the demise of the Roman empire ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainDura Posted September 9, 2008 Share Nice explanation. As per the last line, watch product lifespans grow. Shimano's new wheels are designed the right way. I had the opportunity to dismantle an XTR wheel and boy, have they got it right. Johan seeing that you are the wheels guy, have you had a look at those american classic mtb wheels? are they built the same way as the shimanos or more like the mavics CaptainDura2008-09-09 05:18:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willehond Posted September 9, 2008 Share Good business involves good ethics or did that change with the demise of the Roman empire ? You are clearly not in sales or marketing, hey? A good salesman would tell you that the wheels have been designed to meet the sky high expectations of top sportsmen who are ultra demanding and require the lightest, world beating aluminium wheels with super light aluminium spokes. Durablility is not the main priority and that they have been designed to meet "consumers expectations" and conform to the highest "quality standards". Remember, quality is meeting consumer expectations, NOT building indestructible products! Willehond2008-09-09 05:27:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox_Wagon Posted September 9, 2008 Share Sounds like a software company, who we all know?s, business practice.<?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Funny my Kona's Mavic rims, free ride models ?nogal?, also have these nice "stretch marks" around the nipples. I ride them until the crack and the replace them with DRC MT17. Luckily there is no proprietary hubs and spokes involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straatvark Posted September 9, 2008 Share Of course Mavic gives you a tool to hold the spoke but it still twists in the 50mm between the nipple and where the flat section starts. Ditto on the missus's American Classics. What a frustration and waste of money - new spokes to do a slight true. Had a good conversation with myself the evening... Must admit, they did stay true for long period though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagar Posted September 9, 2008 Share JB what spokes do the elite rims have ?? are they not stainless steel ??? stupid question but would it not be wiser to use SSteel spokes they would last longer than the aluminium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willehond Posted September 9, 2008 Share Johan' date=' I said I would by shares in their company, not buy their products!!! They clearly design their products to lock customers in. Sound business model, but not too nice for customers, but if they don't mind paying twice for the bling...[/quote'] I hear you. But I know the minute I buy shares, Jules' message gets out, people wake up and my shares bottom out. You're right about locking customers in. I spoke to my customer and said he should give up on the wheel. He said "No way, I have a front one that looks just like that." I can just picture it now. R2500's repair cost today. By December he has forgotten the pain (if any). Then the front one starts giving problems. He thinks, aag, let me fix it, I have a back one that looks just like that. Another R2500 - katching! And so it goes and you become rich. Buy shares methinks. PS - At the Hubbers ride on Saturday I wore a jersey with a viscious snarling dog picture. Several people thought I was you. Wanna buy a jersey? THERE IS A JERSEY WITH ME ON IT?! Come on show it!! Now I am intrigued. Where did you get it? Sorry to hear that you were mistaken for me though. Tough reputation to live up to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted September 9, 2008 Share THERE IS A JERSEY WITH ME ON IT?! Come on show it!! Now I am intrigued. Where did you get it? Sorry to hear that you were mistaken for me though. Tough reputation to live up to... I said yes, I am Willehond. However, no offers of marriage or free beers were offered, so I assume you're not much of an ougoing chap. I think I did escape a klap or two though, hiding my true identity. Bought it at www.primalwear.com. Johan Bornman2008-09-09 06:38:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted September 9, 2008 Share JB what spokes do the elite rims have ?? are they not stainless steel ???stupid question but would it not be wiser to use SSteel spokes they would last longer than the aluminium Sorry, I don't k now offhand, will have to consult a web page just like you. The wheels I have here have alu spokes. Ksyriums. Yes it is wiser to use SS spokes but apparently it is against good business practice not to part a fool from his money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted September 9, 2008 Share Nice explanation. As per the last line' date=' watch product lifespans grow. Shimano's new wheels are designed the right way. I had the opportunity to dismantle an XTR wheel and boy, have they got it right. [/quote'] Johan seeing that you are the wheels guy, have you had a look at those american classic mtb wheels? are they built the same way as the shimanos or more like the mavics Sorry, I've also not yet seen these. The problem is that I don't get exposed to all the latest stuff on the market. I tend to get all the problem wheels, wheels out of gaurantee, wheels bought online with no local gaurantee and of course, my own boring handbuilts. I've written a review of the XTR wheels and I'll post it on my web page soon. I'm still learning HTML - can anyone tell me what an Anchor is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alida Posted September 9, 2008 Share Johan' date=' any suggestions in how we (the unfortunate ones in posession of these wheels) can prevent this kind of thing happening? I'm quite worried now, as I think I will have to have my real wheel rebuild soon, as there is one spoke on the non drive side that is loose, but the nipple has been turned in all the way. There is no noticable "buckle"in the wheel, but it is worrying to me. [/quote'] As for your wheel with the nipple issue as described. It is ruined. That aluminium has already yielded and the crack is imminent. Sell them now.As a preventative measure to not have to replace the spokes as well, fiddle with your spokes every month. Turn them and turn them back to prevent the dreaded spoke freeze. Can you explain the "turn them and turn them back" process to me? I've got a set of these wheels and they seem fine but I would obviously like to prevent them becoming not ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intern Posted September 9, 2008 Share From what I have seen, which is a good few sets of Ksyrium SSC SL SPCT GSX FSR EX CT (OK I made up a few of the extra letters, thought I would get in on the action... but Mavic started it) with cracked rims, these are just crap wheels. Pity I have a set. Can't sell them either, that would hardly be fair. Unless....OK, here goes: FOR SALE: 1 set of Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheels, good condition, weight 1590 (I think.) Warning: these wheels are crap and will probably crack at some stage of the game. Price R3000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted September 9, 2008 Share Can you explain the "turn them and turn them back" process to me? I've got a set of these wheels and they seem fine but I would obviously like to prevent them becoming not ok. Alida, have a look at the photo. You should have received both tools with your wheels. The daisy shaped one is a spoke spanner and the circle with slots in is a tool to hold the spoke so it doesn't turn. You need to hold the spoke (choose an appropriate slot) and turn the spanner. Turn it in any direction and then immediately back again. Two or tree 1/4 turns and returns should do the trick. You'll notice that the nipple turns easily in the rim but hard against the spoke. That nipple/spoke interface is the problem. The spoke fits snugly in the nipple and any alu oxide in there acts like a reverse vice. It jams the two. The round tool holds the spoke in place and prevents it from turning. The Daisy-tool is a nipple spanner. It is made of plastic and pretty useless but good enough for casual wiggling. The nipple is left-hand threaded so you should tighten it like you would open a tap. This is the end of the spoke and its attached nipple. The nipple is fitted permanently to the spoke and is supposed to turn on the spoke. Frequent wetting causes the alu to oxidise and swell out. Alida, you may want to consider joining my Ladies Only tech class where I deal with preventative stuff like this. http://www.yellowsaddle.co.za/services_courses_Ladies_Maintenance_Course.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoLefty!! Posted September 9, 2008 Share I agree, these are crap wheels.They'renot light either. 1632gr for the pair ex cluding skewers. I use them for training wheels now so they can die sooner. I[vehad them 7 yrs already and it's been too long. From now on, I will only ride hand made wheels built to my spec. Th ebest wheels i ever had were Open Pro's laced to Veloce hubs with DT Rev spokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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