Christie Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 I see Pinarello is quite popular... Only buy one if they have extended their warranty over 2 years finally or if you have money to burn (I say this from past experience and will never waste my money on another one!) Beautiful frames' date=' but zero after sales service when I had one...I'm a Specialized man for life - not the most flashy bikes, but seem to be a very good balance of quality, weight and after sales service (from what I've heard - mine's 3 years old and still going strong).[/quote'] Interesting thing about the Dogma: Tour Magazine Tested a Dogma, Madone 6.9, Super6 himod, BMC SLR & Tarmac SL3 in their December issue, all size 56-57 frames. Frame+fork for the others were 1400 - 1450 grams. Dogma weighed in at 1848 grams. Thats about 30% heavier.Sure, weight is not everything, but who would pay R50k for a bike that is a lot heavier (in relative terms) than other top end bikes? Dogma was not significantly stiffer than the rest, and had the worst comfort score in the test. Pinarello supposedly has exclusive use of Toray M60 fiber (much stiffer than other current high modulus fiber). So they use better material, but get worse results? That implies that other frames are better engineerd. BTW, Tarmac SL3 won best frameset, & Super6 got best bike overall.
Christie Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 If money was no object, I would go for something like this: http://www.parleecycles.com/storage/models/model_mainpic_Z1.jpgParlee Z1. A couple of grams heavier than the Z5, but offerscustom geometry, custom tube design, custom paint. Hardes part would be choosing between Super Record & Di2.Christie2009-12-20 05:06:01
GoLefty!! Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Independant Fabrications SSR Van Nicholas Astraeus Linksey Helix Only custom is desired
GreyOwl3.0 Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Pinarello have exclusive use of TORAY? They wish! See the new Eddy Merckx uses the same 46HM3K Carbon from TORAY as the FP3 Pinarello! I loved my Prince, it was amazing. But I think they've pushed the envelope a bit far now.
Christie Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Pinarello have exclusive use of TORAY? They wish! See the new Eddy Merckx uses the same 46HM3K Carbon from TORAY as the FP3 Pinarello! GO, as I understand it, they have exclusive use for bicycle frames, of specificaly the Toray M60J fiber. M60J is about 35% stiffer than M46J. It is slightly heavier, but not much, meaning a stiffer design for the same mass, or less mass for the same stiffness (if engineered properly) should be achievable.Christie2009-12-20 13:21:26
BlueMax Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 For what its worth I think one must take these reviews with a pinch of salt. Funny things these "independant" reviews...I normally check who advertises most in the relevant issue and then happen to come out "tops" in the review...How do you measure "comfort" anyway??
Christie Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 For what its worth I think one must take these reviews with a pinch of salt. Funny things these "independant" reviews...I normally check who advertises most in the relevant issue and then happen to come out "tops" in the review...How do you measure "comfort" anyway?? The Tour review was done using science, no guess work or "it feels lekker" type statements. The mass test is simple - they put it on a certified scale. The stiffnest & comfort tests is done in a set of test machines. They clamp the frame, apply a force, and measure the deflection. Stiffness is then experssed in N/mm. They measure all the frames in the same way. The comfort rating is a combination of the Frame's rear dropout vertical stiffness and the fork's vertical stiffness. The lower the stiffness, the more deflection is possible when hitting a bump. This allows more energy to be lost due to structural damping. Simple, pure engineering facts. Unfortunately, that is not what makes the bike industry go round - the aim of marketers is to sell as little value for as much money as possible. I don't deny that the Dogma is a nice looking bike, but imo it is for people with a lot of money that is not too concerned with what they get for their money. The Prince is a better frame. (BTW, for 2010, they dropped the Prince's rrp by $1000 per frameset. Still the same frame, just cheaper, and they still make proffit. Good indication they massively overprice their top end frames)Christie2009-12-20 14:30:40
BlueMax Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Very impressive understanding of the process - I guess you are an engineer (personally I prefer the reviews of people and riders not machines though) - sounds like you have a problem with Pinarello which I can't help with - all I can tell you is that I love the DOGMA - best bike I ever had (or wasted money on according to you) and worth every cent to me...goes like a dream, looks the part and I have never enjoyed cyling this much !! Seems most people in the poll agree?
Christie Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 I don't have a problem with Pinarello. I posted in agreement with Shaun231, perhaps a bit over enthusiastically. One has to admire their business strategy, which seems to be working well. They have maintained good brand visibility, increased demand, and probably improved sales. They also successfully reduced their production costs, without impacting their brand. If one compares this to Colnago (who arguably has a better frame in the EPS, at least according to Charles Manantan, from pezcyclingnews.com), the company had/is still having a more troublesome time than others. They withdrew/stopped their sponsorship at top level, and like the other Italian big names, they also had to switch production to the East. They have, in the past, been loudly trumpeting the "made in Italy" thing as part of their marketing, however, so perhaps the switch had a greater impact on them. It perhaps caused them to delay moving production for too long. Imo the fairly average, eastern flavored paint schemes of 09 also did not help their case. I don't think spending big money on a bike is wasted money. People who can afford it wants to pay for exclusivity. If the Dogma frameset cost R15k, the buyer profile would look very different. I am sure it is a very very good bike.A waste of money would be to buy Campy Borats for R40k, when they retail for R20k elsewhere, or Record for R30k, which should cost about R16k new. Christie2009-12-21 01:41:23
Delgado Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 If your looking for Colnago in SA' date=' the wait is finally over. Our new offices are in Aspen Hills, JHB south. Were planning to break the news this past week, but with the passing of AVH we thought the better of it.Keep an eye on the HUB and your cycling mags in the new year for our new range of EPS, CX1, CLX2.0 and others.[/quote'] Need an ambassador!!! Great news!!
Spinnekop Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 A picture is worth a THOUSAND words.... http://www.tcsn.co.za/downloads/PS610-02.jpg
swiss Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 For me it must be a Bianchi or Mercx, the new ones is awsome!!!
Christie Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 If your looking for Colnago in SA' date=' the wait is finally over. Our new offices are in Aspen Hills, JHB south. [/quote'] Good news, and good luck It will be interesting to see your prices.
Minion Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 A waste of money would be to buy Campy Borats for R40kAre those the ones they outsourced to a small factory in Kazakhstan?
Christie Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 Are those the ones they outsourced to a small factory in Kazakhstan?
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