Johan Bornman Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I came across this problem twice in two months. It goes like this: A frame cracks and is sent to a famous frame painter. He promises to fix the crack and says it will be welded by a friend who works in the SAA workshop. He mentions words like "Specialist welder", "special equipment" and "heat treatment." He then smears the crack either with body putty or, drills a hole at either end to arrest the crack like you would do on a car windscreen. The latter also gets covered in body putty. He then repaints the frame and gives it back to the owner. Two months later the crack re-appears and the bikes end up with me for inspection. (I have some purple penetrative dye that I use). The first frame I saw was a Marin with a crack on the seat tube where the shock mounts. The second was a Giant TCR with a downtube crack. This time I took photos. A picture to show the location of the crack. A close-up of the cracked area with the body putty scraped (popped) off. By now it had propagated from the black indent area into the silver area on the frame. The owner noticed it only after the paint started to "behave funnily." My message to the frame painter: Stop it. You will kill someone. A frame is highly stressed and dangerous when it fails during a ride. Rather tell he owner of the frame what he does not want to hear: "That frame is toast. You've had some good times on it but now it is time to bury it. Can I please help you overcome temptation by cutting it in two right now?" I am not mentioning his name here since both these instances were relayed to me by the original owners of the frames and what I report is thus hearsay. One is a well-known hubber, the other doesn't know about The Hub yet.
TNT1 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 ...the other doesn't know about The Hub yet. Lucky bastard....
Woofie Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Is this guy in jhb? One of my friends had a small crack repaired in cape town the other day. Johan, maybe you should shed some more light onto the matter. Depending on the fall etc, a cracked frame could most definitely lead to death. Maybe the "painter" should be made totally aware of this because what if Mr "X" is crossing the road on his repaired frame and has a malfuntion because of it in front of a 18 wheeler. Would the "painter" not be liable for murder then? Surely he would. Would that not be exactly the same thing as me taking my car in to have a service and them forgetting to connect the brakes? If I had to die the workshop would be charged. Going back to a lighter note What is your feeling about carbon repairs in general though? There is guys in the industry that I would trust to be able to relayer up a frame or something. What about produx? He has been building carbon items for years now? It is something that I would never risk doing myself though. I have done some basic fibre glass/carbon work and working with it is not too difficult. But I dont have any clue how to layer it for the right strength, the right kind of epoxy, grams of the cloth etc, etc. I dont have a problem messing around on my own for stupid things like water cages but I am not going to do something that will put my life at risk.
TNT1 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 murder? sheesh, dude... this is real life, not csi or some crap like that...
Johan Bornman Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 This will go further. Just watch this space.I have no problem with carbon repairs. The stuff is repairable. Aluminium on the other hand, not really. Most of the cracks emanate from weld areas or stress risers such as bottle cage holes etc. The weld areas crack because they were heat damaged. The stress risers invariably are in areas where the tube is very, very thin and welding there is not a good idea. It will fail just next to the weld in the heat affected zone. I will now have a zillion anecdotes from people who welded this or that. Good. You didn't smear body putty over a crack and tell someone it was welded. That's different.
gummibear Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I have seen some pretty good repair work done on aluminium frames and parts but this is just unsafe and stupid.
Woofie Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 murder? sheesh' date=' dude... this is real life, not csi or some crap like that...[/quote'] Sorry I am being extreme here. But even though it sounds crazy I think I am probably right.
manbearpig Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I found a hairline crack in the bottom end of the BB casing, had it welded by the guy who does my car racing stuff. Very neat job but this is now going to be my "spare bike" for muddy days. Will keep you posted on how long it takes me to destroy it again. Hey TNT1 does this count as attempted self murder?
Gasping Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 murder? sheesh' date=' dude... this is real life, not csi or some crap like that... [/quote']Sorry I am being extreme here.But even though it sounds crazy I think I am probably right. Yup - extreme. The worst would be manslaughter (not mans laughter), but more than likely negligence with a civil law suit for loss of earnings once found guilty of the first charge. I understand the need to not spend more money than is critically necessary, but dieing for the sake of saving money is just as extreme.
TNT1 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I found a hairline crack in the bottom end of the BB casing' date=' had it welded by the guy who does my car racing stuff. Very neat job but this is now going to be my "spare bike" for muddy days. Will keep you posted on how long it takes me to destroy it again. Hey TNT1 does this count as attempted self murder?[/quote'] Dude, I had an old steel road bike, True Temper, 10/10, something, about the closest thing to lead water pipes you could get. By the time I junked it it had been welded together at least eight seperate times.... Used that blue beast as my daily training bike
Icycling Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I tend to agree with JB here! Probably the best way to repair an aluminum frame if cracked would be to clean is very well, if possible get the region where the crack is anodized - not sure if this would be possible and then put a carbon bandage on it! Reason for wanting the region anodized is this would make the bond between the Carbon and the Aluminum last a lot longer and stronger. The repair would not involve heating the frame and thus should not affecting the characteristics of the heat treated Aluminum!
dollar Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Agreed. If you are going to repair (weld) a frame then make sure that it is you who rides the bike. If it breaks then you will know why and you cannot be pi$$ed off with anyone. Body putty borders on criminal negligence. Try that in Europe or the USA! This is no different from using superglue to fix a parachute. You are doing something that is going to hurt someone one day!
Woofie Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Body putty borders on criminal negligence. Try that in Europe or the USA!This is no different from using superglue to fix a parachute. You are doing something that is going to hurt someone one day! Absolutely.That is what I am saying.
Andyr249 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 murder? sheesh' date=' dude... this is real life, not csi or some crap like that... [/quote']Sorry I am being extreme here.But even though it sounds crazy I think I am probably right. Murder is the intentional killing. So it would not be murder. It would be Culpable Homicide which is the negligent killing.Andyr2492009-12-07 06:08:27
AndreZA Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 This is no different from using superglue to fix a parachute. You are doing something that is going to hurt someone one day! note to self *evil laugh*Mampara2009-12-07 06:15:11
tarquilla6006 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I must thank Johan for his valuble advice regards trying to repair my trusty GIANT TCR 0 frame, he probably saved me from murder, if reading the other posts is anythinhg to go by. I would however like to add a caveat to all local cyclists. Be very very carefull to speak to well informed, if not qualified people before submitting to information about subjects that you know little or nothing about. I have certainly learned a lot from this experience as i cost me a fair amount of money as well as the disapointment of losing my favourite road frame. I will need to confront the person in question head on to find out what his side of the story is before I submit his personal details. What I can say is that he does not operate in Cape Town. On the upside, i am now a member of THEHUBSA. Is that a good thing???????
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