Using 32GI with GU?

[canfan]

Thanks for the info that you sent Mark.

[Topwine]

Hi Mark

 

Can I just start by saying that I highly respect your knowledge on nutrition and enjoy and value the contribution you are making on this forum regarding nutrition and fitness training in general.

 

Reading your FAQ document however, as well as the info on your website, I have a few more questions on 32Gi if you don't mind.

 

1. You state that 32GI actively promotes fat store tapping. You also says that "32Gi™ is known to oxidise as much as 28% more fat than competing products." Could you care to explain how 32GI does this actively?

 

2. Looking at the graphs of blood glucose levels provided in your FAQ and also the website, why are the graphs different for 32GI's curve? In the one on the website there is a definite gradual decline after reaching a peak, but on the one from your FAQ, there is sort of plato reached and the decline only starts much later.

 

3. Looking at both graphs, and comparing the area under the graphs which in essence represents the amount of energy available in the blood, it would seem that either 32GI have more kJ available per unit mass, or there is more energy available from other sources. Could you maybe explain this kJ difference?

 

4. Why are you not willing to make public an independent test(s) done on 32GI to verify all the claims? Many people have previously on this forum asked for public information on tests done, and so far you have declined to oblige.

 

5. Then lastly, is 32Gi a sort of "Magic" formula or potion (Asterix fame) , or can the benefits be achieved by other competing low GI energy drinks or even better, the generic form of carbohydrates used in 32GI called Isomaltulose ?

[AndreZA]

Mampara thanks for info, how long before the race did u have your breakfast.

 

 

It was about 2½ hours before the race.

[MDW]

It was about 2½ hours before the race.

Was my thinking ;-), your energy levels were stable by the time you began your race ;-)

 

all the best

M

[MDW]

Hi Mark

 

Can I just start by saying that I highly respect your knowledge on nutrition and enjoy and value the contribution you are making on this forum regarding nutrition and fitness training in general.

 

Reading your FAQ document however, as well as the info on your website, I have a few more questions on 32Gi if you don't mind.

 

1. You state that 32GI actively promotes fat store tapping. You also says that "32Gi™ is known to oxidise as much as 28% more fat than competing products." Could you care to explain how 32GI does this actively?

 

2. Looking at the graphs of blood glucose levels provided in your FAQ and also the website, why are the graphs different for 32GI's curve? In the one on the website there is a definite gradual decline after reaching a peak, but on the one from your FAQ, there is sort of plato reached and the decline only starts much later.

 

3. Looking at both graphs, and comparing the area under the graphs which in essence represents the amount of energy available in the blood, it would seem that either 32GI have more kJ available per unit mass, or there is more energy available from other sources. Could you maybe explain this kJ difference?

 

4. Why are you not willing to make public an independent test(s) done on 32GI to verify all the claims? Many people have previously on this forum asked for public information on tests done, and so far you have declined to oblige.

 

5. Then lastly, is 32Gi a sort of "Magic" formula or potion (Asterix fame) , or can the benefits be achieved by other competing low GI energy drinks or even better, the generic form of carbohydrates used in 32GI called Isomaltulose ?

 

Ok, shew, are you a scientist by any chance, you really like to get into detail, guess I am the same sort of person. OK so lets start at the top.

 

1.So yes the testing done , and it basically works like this:

Foods with a low GI have a low postprandial blood glucose response and generally also a low postprandial insulin response. It has been demonstrated that the GI of a test meal has a significant effect on the

subsequent fuel metabolism both under resting conditions as well as during exercise. Most investigations found that the consumption of a low glycemic meal prior to physical exercise increased fat oxidation

during endurance exercise irrespective of relative exercise intensity. Therefore, there is a rational to consider the GI in carbohydrate feeding in athletes since increased fat oxidation could promote endurance stamina and enhance glycogen sparing in liver and muscles.

It has been found that the course of blood glucose and insulin levels following ingestion of a low GI meal favoured a higher level of free fatty acids during exercise,enhanced fat oxidation and was associated

with an improved blood glucose homeostasis At a predefined intensity, the increase in fat oxidation may

lead to a sparing of glycogen in muscles and particularly in the liver leading to enhanced endurance capacity. However, some but not all studies have shown an improved performance following a low GI meal. This may be due to differences in quantity and timing of carbohydrate ingested as well as the type of exercise employed.

 

OK so I have pasted below a test that was performed by our research institute in Germany, to give some more scientific clarification:

In a randomized trial we investigated the metabolic effects of a CHO solution containing either Palatinose, a disaccharide with a low glycemic index vs the respective effects of the high glycemic CHO maltodextrin (MD) given both before and during exercise. 21 endurance trained triathletes (37±8 y, 64±4 ml/kg/min VO2max)cycled for 90 min at 70 percent of VO2max followed by an anaerobic Wingate test. In a blinded cross-over design, the athletes consumed 250 ml of the respective CHO (10 percent solution) 30 min before, at the

beginning of the exercise protocol and after 45 min. The respiratory exchange ratio (RER) and metabolic parameters such as lactate or glucose levels were determined every 15 min, insulin and free fatty acids

were measured every 30 min. The postprandial increase of blood glucose and insulin was lower following Palatinose ingestion than after MD. In contrast, concentrations of free fatty acids (FFA) were higher following Palatinose. Compared to MD, the RER was approximately 10 percent lower with Palatinose throughout the whole exercise period. For the 90 min exercise period this amounts to an increased fat oxidation of approx. 400 kcal. No significant performance difference could be observed in the anaerobic Wingate test (data not shown). Therefore, the consumption of a beverage containing a 10 percent solution of

Palatinose both before and during exercise leads to a higher rate of fat oxidation compared to MD. In contrast to the results of Burke et al. obtained with a high GI beverage (18), the ingestion of Palatinose

during exercise did not abolish the effects of a pre-exercise CHO ingestion with a low GI. Although the intake of Palatinose was associated with a higher energy provision by fat during the 90 min. endurance protocol, subsequent maximal anaerobic power output was not impaired as demonstrated by the results of the Wingate test. From these results it can be concluded that the ingestion of palatinose both before and during exercise favours lipolysis and fat oxidation most likely due to a small postprandial increase in insulin.

 

Back to Me:

So basically what we are seeing is that the maltodextrin really is not providing a benefit over and above that of the isomaltulose, we are actually seeing the performances pretty constant, however you have the fat burn. Also glycogen sparing is evident from the testing carried out, we need to carry out independent testing though to quantify this, but this will then show faster recovery and also the ability to really be able to supply energy through the glyocgen even later on in an event.

 

2. The FAQ graph I did was not accurate I was merely showing the distinction so it was clearer for someone to see, apologies for the confusion.

 

3. The Kj difference is confusing, I think mainly because most products have that per 1 hour we are demonstrating per 2 hours, so generally the feeling is 32Gi does not have enough calories, but based on the ability to access fat stores, we feel that this is a different ball game, and just like you are asking questions we are to, as the testing has shown some really interesting results, so we as a company have contracted 2 organizations 1 in the US to assist us with the research and testing and this will be made public I can promise, it just takes time and costs a load of money, but you will get far more thorough answers from me through this. My first test which I have asked for is to verify the amount of glycogen spared in the liver and or muscles and to quantify this in a performance point of view, I think its a really important test and one that will provide some real scientific benefits to the sporting community.

 

4. Again to stress, the research material we have access to is limited, as the testing conducted by the institutes amounted to millions of dollars, they only release certain but solid facts to us and worry about proof later. We have recieved some more thorough documents from them, but we have a non-disclosure meaning we need to sign anyone into this for receiving any more information. Its like Gartner, if you pay you receive if you dont then you can and are unable to distribute. We have a good relationship with them and believe me I drive them nuts daily to get as much out of them as possible. BUT, we as 32Gi are going to be running testing as mentioned above and this will not be held back. We wont test fat oxidization as this has been done. We are going for glycogen effect first. Bare with me you and some others are a flashing red light on the top of my pc, reminding me of this task daily.

 

5. 32Gi is "our" magic formula, we have just done something unique with the presentation of the product, which a lot of companies out there have not accomplished. The child friendly aspect is something we pride ourselves on, as well as the no going off for months aspect and the taste. Isomultulose is not readily available for use in energy drink or related products in SA and a few other countries, we tied down the suppliers with this. As mentioned privately if I sold sugar why would I un-sell sugar, the energy companies chose their path and we chose ours, you cant compete with your own brand, we took the route to being in the healthy low GI arena and we finally have a product that releases immediately but slowly, it was not possible before. We have a number of product surprises coming out over the next few months, so stay tuned, sure you will enjoy the ride ;-).

 

I hope this is ok, let me know

 

all the best

Mark

[Unathi]

Was my thinking ;-), your energy levels were stable by the time you began your race ;-)

 

all the best

M

 

Hi Mark,

1st let me say what an excellent job you are doing – 32gi aside – your info and knowledge on the subject is fantastic and I see a lot of guys and gals are learning a lot about the subject!

 

OK, so I have a few additional questions:

my focus on MTB endurance racing i.e. The Cape Epic and Ultra Marathon events, past life I raced Ironman and Olympic distance Tri’s.

Weight = +/- 70Kg, race weight +/- 67Kg – height 1,79m

 

1) I sweat!! (A LOT!) Which I consider a good thing as it keeps me cool

Due to this I consume a bottle (600-750ml) at least in 1h20min, basically I stick to the plan of 250ml every ½ hour. So If I go out for a 3 hour ride I pack 2 bottles filled to the top with my current mixture, this gives me +/- 50-60g of carbs per full serving.

a. If 32GI is good for 2 ½ hours does this mean that 1 full serving of 32GI is good enough, but because we need to hydrate – water is then used to substitute? Thus 1 bottle 32Gi and 1 with water only? Alternate the drinking between the 2?

b. I cannot see from your website the Carbs per serving – there is some rough guidance in this needed, as nutrition books I have provides some calculation to what is good for you. i.e. I have experimented during training for The Cape Epic with some alternative drinks (Low GI breakfast as always) and you get some like GU Brew that has ½ the Carbs thus needing a GU top-up to get additional carbs loaded – just using the drink left me flat. Others used as is was good hours, just kept filling and carry the top-up bags!

 

2) Foodie – So I’m also a foodie, I like a banana on rides, raisons and also pack an energy bar. On events like The Cape Epic eating is a must – some advise here as energy bars are considered the easy option

 

3) Amino Acids – Some products contain amino acids and things like L-Glutamine – I do notice your FAQ section saying adding your owns additional products (i.e. I will add PeptPro to mine). What is included what why and how do these really benefit an athlete?

 

4) Does your serving and formula take weight into consideration? Relates to Q 1 above.

 

5) Running vs Riding – Having done my fair share of both, with marathon running I always felt that I can do with less intake – leaves the stomach lighter too, riding a bike I get hungry and need a lot more than running, noted a lot of runners on your site. Fat stores is good to tap into, but does having a very low fat or body mass index make this slightly more skew, or does the process help storing the cells with energy rather than storing it to fat – Mmm hope you understand what I’m trying to ask… :-/

 

Thank you in advance!

[MDW]

Hi Mark,

1st let me say what an excellent job you are doing – 32gi aside – your info and knowledge on the subject is fantastic and I see a lot of guys and gals are learning a lot about the subject!

 

OK, so I have a few additional questions:

my focus on MTB endurance racing i.e. The Cape Epic and Ultra Marathon events, past life I raced Ironman and Olympic distance Tri’s.

Weight = +/- 70Kg, race weight +/- 67Kg – height 1,79m

 

Wish I was that lean lol, my race weight is 67kg at 174cm, but I was a powerlifter and came down from 112kg so I should be happy, not ;-)

 

1) I sweat!! (A LOT!) Which I consider a good thing as it keeps me cool

Due to this I consume a bottle (600-750ml) at least in 1h20min, basically I stick to the plan of 250ml every ½ hour. So If I go out for a 3 hour ride I pack 2 bottles filled to the top with my current mixture, this gives me +/- 50-60g of carbs per full serving.

 

 

a. If 32GI is good for 2 ½ hours does this mean that 1 full serving of 32GI is good enough, but because we need to hydrate – water is then used to substitute? Thus 1 bottle 32Gi and 1 with water only? Alternate the drinking between the 2?

I use a single serving for 2-3 hours, I find it sufficient so yes 1 32Gi bottle and 1 water is fine.

 

 

b. I cannot see from your website the Carbs per serving – there is some rough guidance in this needed, as nutrition books I have provides some calculation to what is good for you. i.e. I have experimented during training for The Cape Epic with some alternative drinks (Low GI breakfast as always) and you get some like GU Brew that has ½ the Carbs thus needing a GU top-up to get additional carbs loaded – just using the drink left me flat. Others used as is was good hours, just kept filling and carry the top-up bags!

Our drink provides 47.1grams of carbs. Not sure I agree with amount of carbs per a hour etc, as you metabolize fat as a source of energy with our drink.

 

2) Foodie – So I’m also a foodie, I like a banana on rides, raisons and also pack an energy bar. On events like The Cape Epic eating is a must – some advise here as energy bars are considered the easy option

Low GI bars compliment our product best save the raisins stick to bananas rather we also have shews which are nice to eat. Reds bars are good. I make low GI sandwiches for racing ultra distance.

 

 

3) Amino Acids – Some products contain amino acids and things like L-Glutamine – I do notice your FAQ section saying adding your owns additional products (i.e. I will add PeptPro to mine). What is included what why and how do these really benefit an athlete?

Its never been proven, I have my doubts, I have personally tested it, but I dont see anything of value there.Some swear by it, but the evidence is totally unclear

 

4) Does your serving and formula take weight into consideration? Relates to Q 1 above.

Nope only for a child under the age of 15 we recommend a half dose. Some adults can even go on a half dose depends on how efficient there systems are.

 

5) Running vs Riding – Having done my fair share of both, with marathon running I always felt that I can do with less intake – leaves the stomach lighter too, riding a bike I get hungry and need a lot more than running, noted a lot of runners on your site. Fat stores is good to tap into, but does having a very low fat or body mass index make this slightly more skew, or does the process help storing the cells with energy rather than storing it to fat – Mmm hope you understand what I’m trying to ask… :-/

 

So to tell you a story, I guy comes up to a respected US sports Scientist and says to him, I have no body fat, so I cant really use my fat stores for energy, the Doctor looks at him and says friend, I dont care if you have 2-3% fat thats enough to fuel 30 marathons. He sites the the Bushman as an example. So my answer to you is definitely more efficient fuel. i would not worry about that at all, you will be able to use it, if we can use it ;-). There are a lot of runners, but soon you will see a lot of cyclists, but running for 4 hours is far more enduring than cycling for even 5 or 6 hours, i think us cyclists tend to over do it on the feeding spree, I rarely eat on training rides, I go out for 6-7 hours on bottles of drink and thats it, no food, I am fine, many can do this, its a matter of training ones self to go out on less, not sure I answered your question

 

Thank you in advance!

Hope i provided some value all the best

M

[Unathi]

Hope i provided some value all the best

M

 

Thanks Mark

 

I still need to understand my 1st question and related to your last comment going for 6 hours with 2 bottles, If you sweat a lot, do you top-up with water to stay hydrated? Surely you need H2O for the sweat you loose?

[zappa]

Hi Mark

 

Doing hill2hill on sunday. As per Unathi,s question. If out for 6hours, must you take in plain water as well. I also need to eat on the ride, what can I use? Preferably something salty 'cos I get so gatvol of sweet drinks.

[MDW]

Thanks Mark

 

I still need to understand my 1st question and related to your last comment going for 6 hours with 2 bottles, If you sweat a lot, do you top-up with water to stay hydrated? Surely you need H2O for the sweat you loose?

Hi there, 1.5 litres for me is ok for a 5-6 hour ride, dont need more. I dont train much on liquid my body seems to have adapted that way, workouts of 1.5hours or less I dont take water, just drink 300ml's before hand an go out whether a run or a ride. I tend to follow Dr Ross Tucker on the sweat theory of it being hypotonic meaning as you sweat salt concentration levels actually increase, testing they have done has shown more water than salt coming out, and so from a cramping point of view well I have not suffered from this.

I take in about 250ml per an hour, yes I finish slightly dehydrated, but I find that this is when i perform at my best.

The rule of thumb is if you can quantify the sweat you lost in weight then you need to replenish it with the amount lost. I think in all honesty most people over hydrate. In humid conditions I lose a lot more sweat but up here in the highveld I dont tend to sweat as much. I did the scientific thing weighing myself before and after workouts in different conditions trying to assess the amount of liquid lost and over the years I have my rate. The other thing to remember is the body can only absorb so much liquid per an hour, due to an effect known as gastric emptying. I am not an expert in this field but I have researched a lot about it.

 

Depending on the type of drink you take the higher the amount of glucose the slower the rate of gastric emptying meaning, the body cannot really handle more liquid for absorption until then. The key factor with the energy drink is the weight per volume concentration of carbs. So basically when selecting a drink an athlete should tend to go for one that has the ability to empty rapidly from the stomach. Something very interesting from research done with gastric emptying is that the more additives, the higher glucose the slower the gastric emptying rate which they point to as the bodies instinctive need to take in more water as you dont feel you are getting enough. But take this away and the gastric emptying rate speeds up allowing the body to absorb more liquid.

 

In simple terms and energy drinks contents itself can determine how the body actually responds to the amount of liquid we feel we require. I guess we just complicate matters lol.

 

So experimentation during training is best to find the right nutrition intake, food and liquid.

 

all the best

Mark

[Unathi]

Hi there, 1.5 litres for me is ok for a 5-6 hour ride, dont need more. I dont train much on liquid my body seems to have adapted that way, workouts of 1.5hours or less I dont take water, just drink 300ml's before hand an go out whether a run or a ride. I tend to follow Dr Ross Tucker on the sweat theory of it being hypotonic meaning as you sweat salt concentration levels actually increase, testing they have done has shown more water than salt coming out, and so from a cramping point of view well I have not suffered from this.

I take in about 250ml per an hour, yes I finish slightly dehydrated, but I find that this is when i perform at my best.

The rule of thumb is if you can quantify the sweat you lost in weight then you need to replenish it with the amount lost. I think in all honesty most people over hydrate. In humid conditions I lose a lot more sweat but up here in the highveld I dont tend to sweat as much. I did the scientific thing weighing myself before and after workouts in different conditions trying to assess the amount of liquid lost and over the years I have my rate. The other thing to remember is the body can only absorb so much liquid per an hour, due to an effect known as gastric emptying. I am not an expert in this field but I have researched a lot about it.

 

Depending on the type of drink you take the higher the amount of glucose the slower the rate of gastric emptying meaning, the body cannot really handle more liquid for absorption until then. The key factor with the energy drink is the weight per volume concentration of carbs. So basically when selecting a drink an athlete should tend to go for one that has the ability to empty rapidly from the stomach. Something very interesting from research done with gastric emptying is that the more additives, the higher glucose the slower the gastric emptying rate which they point to as the bodies instinctive need to take in more water as you dont feel you are getting enough. But take this away and the gastric emptying rate speeds up allowing the body to absorb more liquid.

 

In simple terms and energy drinks contents itself can determine how the body actually responds to the amount of liquid we feel we require. I guess we just complicate matters lol.

 

So experimentation during training is best to find the right nutrition intake, food and liquid.

 

all the best

Mark

 

 

Thanks Mark. Ordered 2 tubs last night (2 diff flavs). I will have a few tests myself and see how I get on with 32GI.

Regards.

[MDW]

For those that are interested great opportunity

 

http://clients.wm.co.za/20029801/direct.htm

[MDW]

Hi all, latest stockist list is updated, 100 stores country wide now stocking 32Gi and growing, will be updating again at the end of the week as 6 or 7 more have placed orders.

 

STOCKIST LIST

[MDW]

Hi All, just a note TONIGHT at 18h55 on DSTV Channel 201, Supersport 1, SS1 32Gi will be on television in a short interview, with the Captain of the Bedford runners club, in support of the Sports Trust.

 

You can see MDW in the flesh now and throw stones at me if you wish LOL ......

 

Seriously the Sports Trust is a great initiative to help underprivileged communities and athletes and we feel its a really worth while cause to support.

 

all the best

M

[Wobbles]

I have been reading a few threads on this subject but there is so many conflicting views and ways of using it that I am confused.

 

I usually ride with Cytomax and GU's. I decided to try G32 with GU and had an uneventful ride as it was not too hard or long but I would not say that either product was better than the other.

 

I then read that you don't use GU with 32!! I tried this and I felt very flat throughout the ride.

 

I also read that you only take GU the last hour with 32. I tried this and nothing kicked in!!

 

Yesterday I went back to Cyto and GU and felt great throughout the 3 hour ride!!

 

In mitigation, when I used 32 I also had Future Life as a pre-ride meal whereas when I use Cyto -I use my tried and tested Low GI toast with Peanut butter and honey.

 

It appears obvious that Cyto is the way to go for me but I am always willing to try new things and perhaps if I used 32 in the right way it could be of greater benefit to me?

[MDW]

I have been reading a few threads on this subject but there is so many conflicting views and ways of using it that I am confused.

 

I usually ride with Cytomax and GU's. I decided to try G32 with GU and had an uneventful ride as it was not too hard or long but I would not say that either product was better than the other.

 

I then read that you don't use GU with 32!! I tried this and I felt very flat throughout the ride.

 

I also read that you only take GU the last hour with 32. I tried this and nothing kicked in!!

 

Yesterday I went back to Cyto and GU and felt great throughout the 3 hour ride!!

 

In mitigation, when I used 32 I also had Future Life as a pre-ride meal whereas when I use Cyto -I use my tried and tested Low GI toast with Peanut butter and honey.

 

It appears obvious that Cyto is the way to go for me but I am always willing to try new things and perhaps if I used 32 in the right way it could be of greater benefit to me?

Hi Wobbles, I think u confused me as well LOL, you of course need to find what works for you. 32Gi is a low GI product whereas the others are high GI, and there is a huge difference between them. It really boils down nutrition, not just daily but pre and druing an event. You see when taking in a high GI substance such as GU or Cytomax as mentioned you put a load of readily available glucose into your blood stream, not all of this is taken up and the balance cast aside is basically stored as fat. I think the issue out there is except for a small % of people most dont know what the appropriate amount of glucose they need to take in, and most overload, everyone is unique so experimentation is key, but a lot of guys out there exercising are actually putting on weight as opposed to staying in shape due to not understanding their nutrition needs properly. 32Gi is very different, it does the opposite it only releases small amounts of glucose into the blood stream, and promotes fat store tapping for the balance, being able to tap your fat stores really means u r utilizing efficient fuel, but by putting any high GI substance into your body at all will totally nullify this process meaning you are solely dependent on the readily available glucose for energy. To be honest a lot of people are so dependent on energy drinks to put them through a session, but a lot of our athletes including myself can go easily 3-4hours at a medium intensity on water alone, and the only reason is that we have pushed the sugar aside and trained our bodies to be far more efficient at sparing glycogen and utilising our fat stores. Its the way we were created, and the way a bushman or aborigine would cross a desert for hours and hours without anything but water. Its for sure a healthier way of living and training. If you look at the average man through an entire year he could pump easily more than a ton of sugar into his body without realizing it, its just no the way we were meant to be, we have just become too accustomed to it.

Thought this might be interesting to you,

Lifestyles aside, can you tell me how long you went on the ride for?

 

all the best

M