Tokai Maintenance and Building

[ramsew]

Agreed DJR.

 

guys, you all are better placed [than me] to understand the situation. However should we not be congnisant of conveying the wrong message to SANParks, surely it's likely that they could also be privy to this conversation?

 

If it's not a problem then i agree with you [DJR, CPTMayhem] but if it potentially is [a problem] then lets redirect everyone's frustration via some other medium or bi yearly meeting?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

guys, you all are better placed [than me] to understand the situation. However should we not be congnisant of conveying the wrong message to SANParks, surely it's likely that they could also be privy to this conversation?

 

If it's not a problem then i agree with you [DJR, CPTMayhem] but if it potentially is [a problem] then lets redirect everyone's frustration via some other medium or bi yearly meeting?

 

The thing is, Ramsew, that the worries from those outside the "circle of trust" as it were, are all valid concerns. The state of trails. The maintenance issues. New trails. Etc etc. The problem is that nobody actually knows how hard it is to deal with Parks, and how long the approvals process takes. This results in anger, frustration and a general feeling of "nothing happening" even though there is tons happening behind the scenes in meetings, proposal processes, EIA's etc. Not to mention that there HAS been maintenance on the trails recently, and last year / the year before that etc. It's also compounded by the fact that this is public land, not private. This introduces so many more challenges, and increases the approval timeline even further.

 

Deon has been saying for a while now that we need to be patient, and the thing is we need to remain patient. Things are changing, and changing faster than before. SANPARKS have admitted that the process has been held back on their side, for valid reasons (I went into this earlier) but more and more attention is being placed on MTB in Tokai. They want it to work. And yes, working parties, for the time being, will remain volunteer based. It's the nature of the beast at the moment, but tbh you get a few guys who WANT to help out, wihtout any pay whatsoever, because they want their sweat to be in the trails that they ride.

 

As for changes to Tokai itself - I know I have said this before. But it remains true, even though more than 3 months has gone by since the refurb of Snake Eyes. Upgrades are on the way. You've seen this in Deon's posts here as well.

 

Chin up okes - it's coming. It just takes time!

[Guest Omega Man]

I'm sorry Deon.

 

I'm sorry that I've offended you. You really do your best, get paid nothing for your efforts and have people whining at you all the time. Me probably more than anyone. Unfortunately you are the go to guy and you catch the sh!tstorm when someone like me throws their toys out of the pram about *** trails.

 

What I have to say below is not aimed at anyone in particular on this forum.

 

When I go to a gas station and hand over money for Diesel I get Diesel in my tank. Not the promise of Diesel at some point in the distant future. When I buy my dogs a tin of dogfood I don't get an empty tin. The tin comes with dog food not the promise of dogfood.

 

This is not the case at Tokai

 

I don't know about you guys but when I go to Tokai I go to ride Mountain Bike trails. I go there for no other reason. That is the product I am paying for. SANPARKS on the other hand seem to look at the money we pay to ride Tokai as a donation. The product we pay good money for is bad. At very best. How many times have you gone back to a restaurant after shite service and bad food?

 

According to the guys at the gate between 1200 and 2000 people ride Tokai every week. They have sold over 4000 activity cards since April 2011. To put that in to Money that's between R1.5mil and R3mil a year that mountain bikers spend to ride Tokai.

 

The moderator said we should be ashamed of ourselves. But is it shameful to be pissed off that the product you are paying for is of such a poor standard?

 

Mayhem is right. I've been in France riding amazing manicured trails in probably the biggest mountain biking area in the world. The thing is. They have the EXACT same issues as Tokai.

 

They also have land access issues and people building illegal trails. But the land owners understand that if their area is to survive in increasing competition from other bikeparks access needs to be granted and the area expanded. The illegal trails have been incorporated into the trail network over time and the illegal builders pulled into the maintenance of the trails. Those areas are becoming profitable and people go back year after year because the product that they are buying is of an incredibly high standard.

 

If the product sucked people would simply not go back.

 

The trails at Tokai NEED to be good. Not for me. For the longevity of Tokai itself. If the trails are crap people will slowly drift way to areas where the trails are good. People on this very thread have said they no longer ride Tokai cos of crap trails. If this continues the place will stop making money and it will be a matter of time before the right palm is greased and it becomes an expensive golf estate.

 

Once again Deon I'm sorry.

[(Deon)]

And from my side I will never deny what the public say.. I ride tokai too! But lack of understanding of the processes I have no choice but to follow, especially when it is presented in the manner as some have expressed here I do not tolerate. If I have been rude, which I know I have, I too apologise..

 

Dwang.. Diesel is a good example. Low sulphur is not stocked at all stations, buy we know it will be a matter of time before it is.. So you make do with what you have, or you make some other compromise.

 

If I thought everything was hunky dory on the mountain, why would I persist to improve MTB in Tokai today, and in SA tomorrow. Despite all the slander this topic generates, I am still up there, still speaking to the owners, still trying to keep a potential shatstorm at bay online with you, the public... Still trying to improve what we have, and eventually what we can have.

 

The promise is that we are gaining support, the battle as to what trails we can ride in the future is still to be fought. Trust me, the fight is still coming, but I will not enter any fray without the strength of allies. This is the point where we are right now, kandui is posting some info on the TMB hosted forum.. I will bring some of it across to Tokai since I have managed to get some perspective from Parks on Friday. What happens in Tokai is also different from what happens elsewhere on the mountain for various reasons like the change in landscape function. So it was important to have TMNP's input on some of our plans before I could offer any promises. This bit of info should give you all a sense just how big this progress is becoming. See.. becoming.. it is developing.

 

Ramsew is right too. Control people, exercise some! This is public, google says look here, some look. That is why I am on the hub in the first place. If you have questions, I can answer them... but things like what mtbsurfer is saying comes from no understanding at all. (sorry, but it is true). First, Tokai is not financially viable for Bennet to travel from Stellies, for the amount of work that is fed out at a controlled, considered, fully specced conservation impact pace allows.

[ramsew]

And from my side I will never deny what the public say.. I ride tokai too! But lack of understanding of the processes I have no choice but to follow, especially when it is presented in the manner as some have expressed here I do not tolerate. If I have been rude, which I know I have, I too apologise..

 

Dwang.. Diesel is a good example. Low sulphur is not stocked at all stations, buy we know it will be a matter of time before it is.. So you make do with what you have, or you make some other compromise.

 

If I thought everything was hunky dory on the mountain, why would I persist to improve MTB in Tokai today, and in SA tomorrow. Despite all the slander this topic generates, I am still up there, still speaking to the owners, still trying to keep a potential shatstorm at bay online with you, the public... Still trying to improve what we have, and eventually what we can have.

 

The promise is that we are gaining support, the battle as to what trails we can ride in the future is still to be fought. Trust me, the fight is still coming, but I will not enter any fray without the strength of allies. This is the point where we are right now, kandui is posting some info on the TMB hosted forum.. I will bring some of it across to Tokai since I have managed to get some perspective from Parks on Friday. What happens in Tokai is also different from what happens elsewhere on the mountain for various reasons like the change in landscape function. So it was important to have TMNP's input on some of our plans before I could offer any promises. This bit of info should give you all a sense just how big this progress is becoming. See.. becoming.. it is developing.

 

Ramsew is right too. Control people, exercise some! This is public, google says look here, some look. That is why I am on the hub in the first place. If you have questions, I can answer them... but things like what mtbsurfer is saying comes from no understanding at all. (sorry, but it is true). First, Tokai is not financially viable for Bennet to travel from Stellies, for the amount of work that is fed out at a controlled, considered, fully specced conservation impact pace allows.

 

 

I love tokai and the [beaten up] trails, i also don't know any better as my first MTB experience was riding a specialized Stumpy in Hyde Park every sunday for 2 years .

 

I would hate to lose the privilege of riding it - I really would! so thanks to all those that do what they can to make it as it is

[nishiki]

I'm sorry Deon.

 

I'm sorry that I've offended you. You really do your best, get paid nothing for your efforts and have people whining at you all the time. Me probably more than anyone. Unfortunately you are the go to guy and you catch the sh!tstorm when someone like me throws their toys out of the pram about *** trails.

 

What I have to say below is not aimed at anyone in particular on this forum.

 

When I go to a gas station and hand over money for Diesel I get Diesel in my tank. Not the promise of Diesel at some point in the distant future. When I buy my dogs a tin of dogfood I don't get an empty tin. The tin comes with dog food not the promise of dogfood.

 

This is not the case at Tokai

 

I don't know about you guys but when I go to Tokai I go to ride Mountain Bike trails. I go there for no other reason. That is the product I am paying for. SANPARKS on the other hand seem to look at the money we pay to ride Tokai as a donation. The product we pay good money for is bad. At very best. How many times have you gone back to a restaurant after shite service and bad food?

 

According to the guys at the gate between 1200 and 2000 people ride Tokai every week. They have sold over 4000 activity cards since April 2011. To put that in to Money that's between R1.5mil and R3mil a year that mountain bikers spend to ride Tokai.

 

The moderator said we should be ashamed of ourselves. But is it shameful to be pissed off that the product you are paying for is of such a poor standard?

 

Mayhem is right. I've been in France riding amazing manicured trails in probably the biggest mountain biking area in the world. The thing is. They have the EXACT same issues as Tokai.

 

They also have land access issues and people building illegal trails. But the land owners understand that if their area is to survive in increasing competition from other bikeparks access needs to be granted and the area expanded. The illegal trails have been incorporated into the trail network over time and the illegal builders pulled into the maintenance of the trails. Those areas are becoming profitable and people go back year after year because the product that they are buying is of an incredibly high standard.

 

If the product sucked people would simply not go back.

 

The trails at Tokai NEED to be good. Not for me. For the longevity of Tokai itself. If the trails are crap people will slowly drift way to areas where the trails are good. People on this very thread have said they no longer ride Tokai cos of crap trails. If this continues the place will stop making money and it will be a matter of time before the right palm is greased and it becomes an expensive golf estate.

 

Once again Deon I'm sorry.

And from my side I will never deny what the public say.. I ride tokai too! But lack of understanding of the processes I have no choice but to follow, especially when it is presented in the manner as some have expressed here I do not tolerate. If I have been rude, which I know I have, I too apologise..

 

Dwang.. Diesel is a good example. Low sulphur is not stocked at all stations, buy we know it will be a matter of time before it is.. So you make do with what you have, or you make some other compromise.

 

If I thought everything was hunky dory on the mountain, why would I persist to improve MTB in Tokai today, and in SA tomorrow. Despite all the slander this topic generates, I am still up there, still speaking to the owners, still trying to keep a potential shatstorm at bay online with you, the public... Still trying to improve what we have, and eventually what we can have.

 

The promise is that we are gaining support, the battle as to what trails we can ride in the future is still to be fought. Trust me, the fight is still coming, but I will not enter any fray without the strength of allies. This is the point where we are right now, kandui is posting some info on the TMB hosted forum.. I will bring some of it across to Tokai since I have managed to get some perspective from Parks on Friday. What happens in Tokai is also different from what happens elsewhere on the mountain for various reasons like the change in landscape function. So it was important to have TMNP's input on some of our plans before I could offer any promises. This bit of info should give you all a sense just how big this progress is becoming. See.. becoming.. it is developing.

 

Ramsew is right too. Control people, exercise some! This is public, google says look here, some look. That is why I am on the hub in the first place. If you have questions, I can answer them... but things like what mtbsurfer is saying comes from no understanding at all. (sorry, but it is true). First, Tokai is not financially viable for Bennet to travel from Stellies, for the amount of work that is fed out at a controlled, considered, fully specced conservation impact pace allows.

 

Both of these are excellent posts. Deon, you clearly have a LOT of free time on your hands in order to put up with such a tedious process. Until SANparks take MTB seriously Tokai will continue to decay, until the goose that lays the golden eggs is starved to death. Anyway, I take my hat off to you for fighting the good fight. It's a pity though that you are doing this on your own. There needs to be a stronger body of enthusiasts who take this seriously enough to force changes. Perhaps if enough riders decide to try the other parks out for just a month instead of Tokai, SANparks might feel the impact and take us all seriously.

 

I support Omega Man's opinion though, as I hadn't been riding in Tokai for several months at some point this year. When I returned the decay was noticeable and shocking. Tokai has a lot of potential as a park and the city could do well to realise that places like this sweeten the deal when it comes to tourists. Change needs to come in the form of an improved product with sustainable results. A tall order I know as the Cape is a rough environment to keep groomed. However, parks in Europe manage to go from Ski resorts to trail parks and back every year.

[jimmy hardtail]

Deon, I for one think you are doing a good job,especially dealing with all the BS from parks and from the riders. Whens the next build day cos DH 1 needs some serious work at the top. Ill be there like a bear.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Deon, I for one think you are doing a good job,especially dealing with all the BS from parks and from the riders. Whens the next build day cos DH 1 needs some serious work at the top. Ill be there like a bear.

 

There, and my roots, or should i say my ruts!

[DJR]

Deon, I for one think you are doing a good job,especially dealing with all the BS from parks and from the riders........

Agreed (But I'm a bit biased, because I'm afraid he'll ride me into the ground on the mountain )

[Iwan Kemp]

Despite all the slander this topic generates, I am still up there, still speaking to the owners, still trying to keep a potential shatstorm at bay online with you, the public... Still trying to improve what we have, and eventually what we can have.

 

Well freaking done. Most of us would've stripped our moer and thrown in the towel by now. As always, shout where we can help. :thumbup:

[(Deon)]

Deon, I for one think you are doing a good job,especially dealing with all the BS from parks and from the riders. Whens the next build day cos DH 1 needs some serious work at the top. Ill be there like a bear.

 

Well it was not going to be advertised, but Saturday at 10 seems likely. Join Vince, he will be on the DH if we get second vehicle access. (I have no doubt it will be ok but it was a bit short notice)

[nishiki]

Surely with the amount of unemployment in South Africa there could be an opportunity to create permanent work for several people to look after and groom these trails? This would serve the added purpose of there being a few extra eyes to look out for illegal riders (freeloaders) and criminal elements in the park.

 

Not that it's at all wrong, but I'm just wondering why paying customers should be expected to give up free time to do the work of a trail team that should be paid and handled by the parks? It's the same as me hiring someone to move my house but I end up carrying all the boxes myself. Absurd really.

[(Deon)]

Regarding volunteers and SanParks, last year over 36 million rand was donated in time and financial contributions through the honorary rangers. This donation is a saving on already tight budgets they operate with. It is easy to point out their perceived failings but the closer you get to knowing the people and the company, the clearer thier circumstances become. If it was not for the volunteer system in Tokai, these trails would have been shutdown years ago. Long before the demands were aired by people happy not to contribute, but crit the way the process functions.

 

Volunteers, people who WANT to contribute. Remember, the numbers of riders has only boomed in the two ish last years. Before that there very few riders in Tokai, certainly not enough for Parks to justify large spend.

 

Again, this is not a financially driven system. It relies on good people who understand altruism.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Well it was not going to be advertised, but Saturday at 10 seems likely. Join Vince, he will be on the DH if we get second vehicle access. (I have no doubt it will be ok but it was a bit short notice)

 

I'll be there, as discussed on Tuesday...

[nishiki]

Hmm. I'm not so sure "altruism" would be the right term for doing someone else's work for them.

Each to their own though.

I personally don't have the time to dig trails all day. I'd prefer to spend the little free time I have riding my bike. It's unfair of you to judge those who cannot fight your convoluted battle with you. Feel free to waste your time with sanparks. We just moved on to other venues.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Hmm. I'm not so sure "altruism" would be the right term for doing someone else's work for them.

Each to their own though.

I personally don't have the time to dig trails all day. I'd prefer to spend the little free time I have riding my bike. It's unfair of you to judge those who cannot fight your convoluted battle with you. Feel free to waste your time with sanparks. We just moved on to other venues.

 

I personally find it really hard to accept that argument, Nishiki. We love working on the trails, because we love riding them and we know that we will reap the rewards at the end of the day. Ask any person who has worked on a trail whether they think that the time was a "waste" and you would probably receive a blank look followed by a "you're crazy" 5 seconds later.

 

And we're not asking you to fight the battle. If you WANT some input, come and build. It's that simple. You'll probably learn 10 times more from one build session than you would from 10 b1tch sessions on the Hub.

 

And how many times must we continue to show you that the time spent with Parks has NOT been wasted? Deon has repeatedly divulged information, as have I, and yet you continue to perform a little dance in your personal space of debilitation.

 

And you're wrong - it is altruism. We see it as OUR work. We love doing it (building trails & making sure they're maintained) - if you don't, then fine. That's your loss.