Ryinc

Spinnekop – thanks for sharing that fascinating graph. It is an interesting discussion and the points I make below are not as criticism, but intended as constructive debate so that we figure out how we optimally use this metric: 1. First up - Amazing numbers in that time trial – most of us can only dream about numbers like this! 2. I’m completely in favour of training peaks and GC including W’ – I think it is very interesting and very useful as a post analysis tool and provided the values are dialled in correctly useful to design interval training. What I’m not sure about is the value in racing. 3. Generally, in terms of time trials - perhaps you have a point. It could be used, to ensure that you “empty the tank” at the right rate, and not too quickly. However, a couple of things to think about: a. What is the optimal strategy? Ride at critical power for as long as possible and then increase power to empty the tank at the end, or try to empty the tank as evenly as possible over the course of the time trial – e.g. target 75% w’bal after 25% of distance, 50% w’bal after 50% of distance, 25% W’bal after 75% of distance etc. b. What impact does the route profile have on the strategy? For example if the course was uphill for the first half, and downhill the next half I imagine that the optimal strategy will be to use up more of W’ in the first half, but how much more? c. In your graph, your W’ actually went negative about halfway through the ride, if I am interpreting it correctly. Now this might be because you did not have your parameters dialled in correctly – either W’ set too low (i.e. your above CP battery is bigger than you thought) or critical power set to low (you actually only start using the battery at a higher power level than the current parameters suggest). So if you had seen W’ bal close to zero on your garmin here in this ride would you have backed off the power? If you had, you would have ended up with a worse result. How do we know that you could not have gone even harder making w’ bal even more negative (you probably know whether there was anything left in the tank or not, but this is also based on feel.). d. I suspect that you paced yourself in this time trial according to power/normalized power. I am guessing that you worked out what power you could maintain over the expected duration of the time trial and tried to ride as closely to that as possible. By the looks of it based on the post-event analysis of even run-down of W’bal (the trend, not the values), it looks as though you did a pretty awesome job of even pacing (although we don't know for sure whether you could have gone harder still or if this was absolute maximum) – would tracking W’ in the ride have materially improved your pacing even if you had the parameters set correctly?

Thats precisely the point. W'/critical power theory doesn't seem to adequately allow for these types of issues - i.e. the size of the "battery" (w') or when the battery starts being used (i.e when power > critical power) are surely dependendent on how tired you are from training in the last week (say short term stress), how tired you are from the ride you are busy doing (say total TSS or similar in the ride so far?) And say how tired you are from the efforts made in the last (say) 20 minutes. If it doesn't allow for this type of complexity how valuable will it/can it be then in racing? On the flip side, it would be extremely difficult to allow for it, and parameterise correctly at an individual level. Its certainly intersesting but not sure of application just yet.

Spinnekop, you have forgotten more about racing then i will ever know but i disagree on this point. I don't see any realistic application of W' in racing. 1. Lets consider an example of a possible practical application. You have full W' (lets say 20 000), you hit a hill and make an attack and pushing more power than CP. After 1 min, your W'bal is down to 17 000. After another minute down to 15 000, after another minute down to 12 500. Now you have to do a mental calculation how much longer your w' is going to last? Keeping in mind calculus (integration) is required to do the calc, at best it will be a very rough guess based on "feel" 2. W' is highly theoretical in my view. Try this experiment. Do one interval that in theory will empty your W' at your freshest but well warmed up - say 5 min at your peak power for 5 min. Now ride 1 hour at 10 watt below critical power (which in theory uses none of your W'), and then do try to do the 5 min interval again. According to w' theory you will be able to do this exactly as for the first 5 min interval. Cant speak for you but for me there is no way that i will be able to ride the 5 min at the same intensity. 3. As stated above the maths required is quite complex, and if garmin or others implement likely to be based on simplified model, e.g. classical cp model, which we know does not really capture power duration issues that well. 4. W' is only one piece that you need to know about yourself, you also need to be able to determine "tau" which impacts how quickly w' recovers. Where i can see a good application is in interval training if you have the parameters dialled in correctly. E.g do 5 repeats of riding 400 watts until W' goes to 5% remaining. Then wait for recovery to 100% and go again. Personally i would prefer to see a "matches" concept in bike computers. E.g shows you how many zone 5, 6, 7 matches you have burnt in the race. By reviewing this post race you will start to know your matchbook and how to deploy them strategically in a race. Similar in principle but more application in my view.

Excellent well done.

Is your garmin set to include zero power in average? It should be set to include zeros. Non-zero average power is often similar to norm power result.

This is unusual but possible. For example imagine riding 19 min at 275 watts then ride for 1 min at zero watts. Then keep repeating. The average for this combination of intervals will lead to higher power for the whole ride than best 20m within the ride. So for example on the crit course if there is on part of the lap which is lower power tgis could be the cause. In your case, I would take the power for event as first stab 20m test - but better to repeat the test in conditions that you can repeat over time with min impact on variables.

You need to overcome 4 types of resistance in powering a bicycle forward. Gravity, wind, road/tyre resistance and drivetrain friction. The relative importance of these at any time depends on factors such as gradient and speed. For example wind resistance increases with speed. The power required to overcome gravity increases with gradient.If two riders have the same W/kg the impact of gravity is neutralised so it becomes a question of the other forces relative to their absolute power. Wind resistance is by far the biggest of these. However wind resistance is also rider specific. It is possible that a lighter rider with a lower absolute wattage but better aero equipment and position could be faster even if their absolute wattage is lower or simply because their surface area ("cda") is smaller because the incur less wind resistance. However, v12 is correct that if the riders were also similar across these dimensions then the rider with the higher absolute wattage would be fastest. One other minor technical point. If the weight of the bicycle is not included in the w/kg calculation, then technically when the weight of the bike is included the lighter riders revised w/kg will decrease by more than the heavier rider because the bike adds a bigger percentage of additional weight. In short quite a difficult question to answer without the full specifics of each rider.

Brilliant!

Thanks for teaching me about this Gary

Are there any hubbers who rode in AL, rode with a power meter, weigh about 70-75, and kept with the group? If yes woyld you be prepared to share race file. I got dropped and want to see what kind of power numbers i need to target to be able to keep up.

Honestly think nf is more suitable to first timer

In the book training and racing with a power meter by coggan and allen they are critical of this type of training. If i remember correctly they argue, with evidence, that strength is not the inhibiting factor in cycling. I suggest reading what they have to say before investing too heavily in that type of training (including the very low cad work referred to above)

Thanks gerald. This was the first year I played and was fun to be a part of it.

Has anybody received email/sms about race this weekend? Is number pick up tomorrow at cycle lab?

I thought this years marathon was a much fairer test, last climb was tough but I found it quite a bit easier than last years final climb. Still a really tough day out. The cool weather also helped make it a bit easier I thought. Much preferred this years single track finish to last year.

Thanks. I have a standby rider now at least.

I'm scheduled to ride Sani2C (race) from this Thursday to Sat (16-18 May). However, i am struggling to recover from a stomach bug and i need to try line up a sub rider for my partner to be on standby in case i cannot participate. Event and accommodation cost will be covered. You will only be expected to cover 50% of petrol and toll costs from Gauteng. Plan is to leave on wednesday morning. My partner is a reasonably strong rider - can probably ride a tough marathon in about 4 hours. If you are available to ride, please sms me on 072 437 1255. We will probably make a final call on particupation tomorrow (tuesday) by about midday.

I know guys that stay in bedfordview that all ride with edenglen club...not sure of details but sure it is an option they do have rides on Saturdays

R1000 deposited. What do you believe is the best time that you could do on the -swim -bike -run After the event i will pay R100 extra for each discipline that you beat your best target time, If you beat your best target time in all three, i will add an extra R200 to get it to an extra R500. (you will need to pm me to remind me to make the payment if this happens) - this is obviously is made in good faith that you are not just going to give a target time that you KNOW you are going to beat - it is intended to be a challenge for you. Good luck!

Gary this is really cool, I have a few suggestions. 1. Increase the 2 min bin width to smooth the data a bit. 2. Change the y-axis to be a percentage- easier to interpret and compare e.g across groups 3. Show another version of the graph which shows cumulative distribution I.e total % of people finished by x time- would make it nice to see for example if I improve my time by say 5 minutes my position in distribution would change by say 6%. 4. It would be really cool to see the distribution for a couple of years.

You need tubeless tyres. Hutchinson make some but they are not cheap. I have also found tubeless wheels (ultegra) tough to get tyre off rim. You would normally be able to run the wheels with standard tyres and tubes. But in general (may be exceptions) dont think standard tubes will be ready. Also if you run tubeless be careful to research what sealant to use - there are some stories of corrosion from some sealants in road wheels.

I have a Bianchi frame and one of the cable stops that clips into the frame for the internal cable routing went missing. Sybrie from J&J cycling was kind enough to find a replacement part which they stripped off an old frame and didn't even charge me. Unfortunately the part was not the correct one. Contacted Sybrie again to try help me again find the right one and has just let me know that they have found one. Great businesses give fantastic service despite when it is more a hassle and there is little/no money to be made on the deal. Thank you J&J cycling for great help and service. I hope i get to directly or indirectly support their business in future.

@jcza i had the same issue -think its a browser issue, opened site in google chrome and then it was fine

As the owner of goods surely you have free choice to sell to whoever you see fit? As long as you have not committed to a particular buyer that they can have item and then sell it to someone else i see no issue. Questioning someones integrity based on that they did not check the hub for pm...sorry I simply cannot agree. Even if they did check PM there are various reasons why you might choose one seller over another other than first come first serve...e.g. location, security of sale etc.

I suspect the people saying that this is a soft jock have not ridden the roads on this years oute. I reckon this route easily as difficult as normal route. There is at least 1 tough climb on every stage not to mention slow but long uphill grinds and some rolling sections. I will say boulders has some steeper sections than any of the climbs on this years route.