Cracked frame - how safe is this?

[ti guy]

 

Good to be vigilant in these trying times ...

[CAAD4]

Good to be vigilant in these trying times ...

Did someone say vigilante?

[Johan Bornman]

Gladly

 

Bornman writes in 2 of his replies the following:

 

"It [titanium] is a totally inappropriate material for bicycles".

 

The reason why this is so, is, inter alia, that

 

> it more difficult (read expensive) to manufacture than either steel or aluminium

> to make a very light strong titanium frame is is very, very difficult

> the [titanium] frame heavier than an equally-strong aluminium one

> to "make" titanium requires a huge amount of energy, many times that required to obtain steel or even aluminium; this makes it expensive and gives it in modern parlance, a high carbon footprint

> process of welding, bending, milling, mitering and forming.... is easy with aluminium, difficult with titanium ...difficult and expensive

> an alu frame can be made lighter, stronger, more durable and much much cheaper than a titanium frame.

 

Bornman concedes that

 

"Since titanium is twice as hard as aluminium, some parts can successfully be made from it. Bolts - sprockets etc. Insofar its use in bolts goes, it is a poor substitute for steel. In that application it only saves half the weight of the bolt, but bolts weigh nothing to start off with, looking at the overall bike." [my emphasis]

 

For many thousands of bicycle owners, it is important to save weight in the built of the machine. Yes, even a single gram will count and if 70g can be saved by using titanium bolts instead of steel, bolts do NOT weigh "nothing to start off with", even looking at the over-all bike ...

 

But does that make titanium a totally inappropriate material for bicycles?

 

I think not. Surely, titanium cracks and breaks. We read about that in magazines and on The Hub. But so does carbon and aluminum. We have seen evidence of this in the same magazines and here on The Hub.

 

Bornman is rather vociferous about the cost of titanium; in no less that 4 lines does he mention that it is expensive. That is true, but it is also true that decent carbon frame costs as much as a decent titanium frame.

 

I have ridden titanium frames for a long, long time - on the road and in the mountains - and I have yet to suffer from a crack or any other breakdown.

 

I admit that titanium has its deficiencies, but to conclude that it is an inappropriate material for bicycles, is a little stupid.

 

 

Keep it civil. Call me Johan. Speak to me in the first person.

 

Bolts: Just about all the groupset manufacturers have a high-end gruppo where some of the bolts are made from titanium. You'll notice that not all of them can safely be replaced with ti, hence the half-steel, half-ti mix. Bolts such as disc bolts, stem bolts and seatpost bolts cannot be safely substituted for ti bolts. This leaves very little else to bother with and the real weight saving there is negligible. Or, if you choose to not negate the saving, then I'll argue that the cost/weight savings ratio is ridiculously high.

 

Ti as a frame material: To the untrained eye, titanium looks a lot like alu. In fact, alu can be alloyed to look just like titanium, not to mention that it can be anodised to look like ti too. Thus on the looks side, I don't see the point. It doesn't offer any visual advantage. I've already dealt with the disadvantages of working with ti as well as its reputation as a durable frame material. We could differ on that, this is my perspective.

 

Modern aluminium frames from the large manufacturers are now shaped like yesterday's carbon frames. Organic lines, flows, multi-faceted tubes etc, all thanks to hydroforming. No-one is doing cost-effective ti hydroforming along the lines of alu frames quite yet. The look of new alu has changed and is sophisticated. With ti you're still stuck with yesterday's look of round tubes with limited shaping. Call it classic or retro if you want, but I do think the option is an advantage.

 

Here carbon has the ultimate advantage. It can be shaped at will.

 

Weight of the frame. For two frames with the same stiffness and fatigue strength, you score with aluminium. Any frame of any design can be made lighter, stiffer and more durable in aluminium. I just don't see why anyone would choose ti? On paper it doesn't score. Emotionally pulls the heartstrings, but as I pointed out in my first post, it is all about the perception that this stuff is unobtanium and exotic.

 

If you want to go exotic, make the frame from Boron. Just never machine it afterwards or you'll poison yourself and your family.

 

So, I've taken the looks out of the equasion, added cost (have I mentioned that the stuff is expensive?), added weight, cast doubt on its durability, pointed out its limitations in shaping options, put the frame on a scale, pointed out the emotional aspect and I can't help wonder what's left? Why bother?

Edited November 23, 2011 by Johan Bornman

[Wyatt Earp]

Keep it civil. Call me Johan. Speak to me in the first person.

 

 

Ti as a frame material:1. To the untrained eye, titanium looks a lot like alu. In fact, alu can be alloyed to look just like titanium, not to mention that it can be anodised to look like ti too. Thus on the looks side, I don't see the point. It doesn't offer any visual advantage. 2.I've already dealt with the disadvantages of working with ti as well as its reputation as a durable frame material. We could differ on that, this is my perspective.

 

 

 

1.You mention this "untrained eye" sentence often.

Seems to me like you are the only one with trained eyes ?

 

2.Seen you refer to many things in this manner, often.

Now what has qualified you to give the opinions you do ?

To be quite frank, I really don't have an issue with your opinions or "perspectives" as you call it, where the problem lies for me is how you try and nail it as gospel.

 

Now to always try and speak as an authority who tries to make the rest of the untrained masses look stupid, is sure to have people being less civil towards you.

[The Drongo]

Keep it civil. AGREE. Call me Johan. Speak to me in the first person. But do not be condescending.

 

Bolts: Just about all the groupset manufacturers have a high-end gruppo where some of the bolts are made from titanium. You'll notice that not all of them can safely be replaced with ti, hence the half-steel, half-ti mix. Bolts such as disc bolts, stem bolts and seatpost bolts cannot be safely substituted for ti bolts. This leaves very little else to bother with and the real weight saving there is negligible. Or, if you choose to not negate the saving, then I'll argue that the cost/weight savings ratio is ridiculously high. Agreed

 

Ti as a frame material: To the untrained eye, titanium looks a lot like alu. Agreed In fact, alu can be alloyed to look just like titanium, DISAGREE not to mention that it can be anodised to look like ti too. DISAGREE Thus on the looks side, I don't see the point. ITS LIKE THOSE WATCHES YOU OWN - EITHER YOU GET IT OR YOU DON'T. It doesn't offer any visual advantage.D I S A G R E E I've already dealt with the disadvantages of working with ti as well as its reputation as a durable frame material. ??? We could differ on that, this is my perspective. WE DO.

 

Modern aluminium frames from the large manufacturers are now shaped like yesterday's carbon frames. Organic lines, flows, multi-faceted tubes etc, all thanks to hydroforming. No-one is doing cost-effective ti hydroforming along the lines of alu frames quite yet. The look of new alu has changed and is sophisticated. With ti you're still stuck with yesterday's look of round tubes with limited shaping. Call it classic or retro if you want, but I do think the option is an advantage.

 

Here carbon has the ultimate advantage. It can be shaped at will. LIMITED LIFESPAN - period.

 

Weight of the frame. For two frames with the same stiffness and fatigue strength, you score with aluminium. ARGUABLE Any frame of any design can be made lighter, stiffer (not an advantage) and more durable in aluminium. I just don't see why anyone would choose ti? On paper it doesn't score. Emotionally pulls the heartstrings, but as I pointed out in my first post, it is all about the perception that this stuff is unobtanium ( ) and exotic.

 

If you want to go exotic, make the frame from Boron. Just never machine it afterwards or you'll poison yourself and your family. Please elaborate.

 

So, I've taken the looks out of the equasion, added cost (have I mentioned that the stuff is expensive?), added weight, cast doubt on its durability, pointed out its limitations in shaping options (who wants a bike that looks like an art nouveau lilly leaf?) , put the frame on a scale, pointed out the emotional aspect and I can't help wonder what's left? Why bother? THE EMOTIONAL ASPECT, which is really all that matters.

 

Don't get me wrong. Nothing the problem with ali, but I can tell you now, that a Ti watch kicks white gold into touch any day - from an EMOTIONAL aspect.

 

And if I had the money to splerg on a Ti watch, I wouldn't...I would be buying me a MOOTS.

Edited November 24, 2011 by The Drongo

[The Drongo]

1.You mention this "untrained eye" sentence often.

Seems to me like you are the only one with trained eyes ?

 

2.Seen you refer to many things in this manner, often.

Now what has qualified you to give the opinions you do ?

To be quite frank, I really don't have an issue with your opinions or "perspectives" as you call it, where the problem lies for me is how you try and nail it as gospel.

 

Now to always try and speak as an authority who tries to make the rest of the untrained masses look stupid, is sure to have people being less civil towards you.

 

Dude. You are ALLOWED to disagree. Go ahead. Disagree.

 

Edit: Not feeling stupid, me.

Edited November 23, 2011 by The Drongo

[Wyatt Earp]

Dude. You are ALLOWED to disagree. Go ahead. Disagree.

 

Edit: Not feeling stupid, me.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind, but you are all way too clever for me .

Edited November 23, 2011 by Dangle

[The Drongo]

Thanks, I will keep that in mind, but you are all way too clever for me .

 

Hey. I ain't going to spell it for you....You can still DISAGREE, regardless of how UN-CLEVER you may FEEL you are....

 

try it, g'waaan!

[Wyatt Earp]

Hey. I ain't going to spell it for you....You can still DISAGREE, regardless of how UN-CLEVER you may FEEL you are....

 

try it, g'waaan!

What are you actually trying to say ?

That I will be embarrassed if I was to disagree ?

You should have your name tattooed to the soles of your feet

[ti guy]

Keep it civil. Call me Johan. Speak to me in the first person.

 

Bolts: Just about all the groupset manufacturers have a high-end gruppo where some of the bolts are made from titanium. You'll notice that not all of them can safely be replaced with ti, hence the half-steel, half-ti mix. Bolts such as disc bolts, stem bolts and seatpost bolts cannot be safely substituted for ti bolts. This leaves very little else to bother with and the real weight saving there is negligible. Or, if you choose to not negate the saving, then I'll argue that the cost/weight savings ratio is ridiculously high.

 

Ti as a frame material: To the untrained eye, titanium looks a lot like alu. In fact, alu can be alloyed to look just like titanium, not to mention that it can be anodised to look like ti too. Thus on the looks side, I don't see the point. It doesn't offer any visual advantage. I've already dealt with the disadvantages of working with ti as well as its reputation as a durable frame material. We could differ on that, this is my perspective.

 

Modern aluminium frames from the large manufacturers are now shaped like yesterday's carbon frames. Organic lines, flows, multi-faceted tubes etc, all thanks to hydroforming. No-one is doing cost-effective ti hydroforming along the lines of alu frames quite yet. The look of new alu has changed and is sophisticated. With ti you're still stuck with yesterday's look of round tubes with limited shaping. Call it classic or retro if you want, but I do think the option is an advantage.

 

Here carbon has the ultimate advantage. It can be shaped at will.

 

Weight of the frame. For two frames with the same stiffness and fatigue strength, you score with aluminium. Any frame of any design can be made lighter, stiffer and more durable in aluminium. I just don't see why anyone would choose ti? On paper it doesn't score. Emotionally pulls the heartstrings, but as I pointed out in my first post, it is all about the perception that this stuff is unobtanium and exotic.

 

If you want to go exotic, make the frame from Boron. Just never machine it afterwards or you'll poison yourself and your family.

 

So, I've taken the looks out of the equasion, added cost (have I mentioned that the stuff is expensive?), added weight, cast doubt on its durability, pointed out its limitations in shaping options, put the frame on a scale, pointed out the emotional aspect and I can't help wonder what's left? Why bother?

 

I do not know you; ergo, I will not call you by [what I assume] your first name. So, Bornman it will be.

 

And you are so right ... why bother at all?

[MTBer wannabee]

[The Drongo]

What are you actually trying to say ?

That I will be embarrassed if I was to disagree ?

You should have your name tattooed to the soles of your feet

 

How did you know THAT?

 

Illuminatist !

[Wyatt Earp]

How did you know THAT?

 

Illuminatist !

That's what most people do when they are so deep up someone's @ss.

 

I am an Mormonfreeminatist

Look under my avatar.

[amasendeinja]

Me I really couldn't be arsed what other people think of titanium bikes. I've owned 3 (still have 2) and will own more in future. Black Sheep st Highlight, Funk la Ruta, Generic Vecsus and Moots MootoX YBB all on the shopping/wish list.

 

Not being suitably qualified to discuss the technical merits of titanium as a suitable material for bicycles, I'll shut my gob. I like it and pretty much 99.9999% of cycling - which we do for fun, not to get a fing doctorate - is about what you like, ergo it's pretty much all about...EMOTION...

 

PS. OP, as already requested please post pics of your new frame.

[The Drongo]

That's what most people do when they are so deep up someone's @ss.

 

I am an Mormonfreeminatist

Look under my avatar.

 

Right.

 

I shall don my Lightsaber... (Laser!)

Edited November 23, 2011 by The Drongo

[The Drongo]

Me I really couldn't be arsed what other people think of titanium bikes. I've owned 3 (still have 2) and will own more in future. Black Sheep st Highlight, Funk la Ruta, Generic Vecsus and Moots MootoX YBB all on the shopping/wish list.

 

Not being suitably qualified to discuss the technical merits of titanium as a suitable material for bicycles, I'll shut my gob. I like it and pretty much 99.9999% of cycling - which we do for fun, not to get a fing doctorate - is about what you like, ergo it's pretty much all about...EMOTION...

 

PS. OP, as already requested please post pics of your new frame.

 

Yeah. Talking of Blacksheep, someone posted a pic of a BS ( ) 29'er somewhere herein, and then refused to inform as to whether or not is was his/hers...

 

Baaaa d Form!