Cricket......

[Carbon_Kooi]

I sometimes wonder why you would debate why a certain player is in the team when we all know the real answer....it's just the way it is in South Africa.

[Bloukrans]

I sometimes wonder why you would debate why a certain player is in the team when we all know the real answer....it's just the way it is in South Africa.

Who is "we"

 

According to you, what is the real answer

[Bloukrans]

I can't believe this guy is not on the plane Down Under

Edited March 28, 2018 by Bloukrans

[Carbon_Kooi]

Who is "we"

 

According to you, what is the real answer

I would say "we" are the people of South Africa.

Quotas and transformation is real in South Africa, you can not debate a selection of a team without considering the issue.

[Bloukrans]

I would say "we" are the people of South Africa.

Quotas and transformation is real in South Africa, you can not debate a selection of a team without considering the issue.

Noted

[babse]

bavuma first class record is average at best...

 

and 28 test matches with 1 hundred is pretty poor.

[leeubok]

That's why I have an issue with TdB. If he is such a better batsman then he should've made far better use than what TB has. At international level TB has been the better batsman. Fact. I am not saying TdB doesn't deserve a chance but when he does get it he must get a score, a decent one. In the same manner that Markram has locked up the openers berth for the next while by way of example. Until TdB bring his domestic form into international cricket I would much prefer Bavuma.

 

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I don't agree Mntboy. Bavuma has had 44 innings to prove himself. And for me, the only thing he has proved is that he is average. He scored 1 hundred early on, and that has kept him in the side for how long now? He is a specialist batsman, and should have a much higher avg by now. 

 

TDB has only played 10 innings. 4 of those against Aus. Granted, he hasn't scored any meaningful runs yet, but his test career has just started. 

 

That's why I think it is better to compare their first class averages. If Bavuma can only score 12 hundreds in 194 inns against mediocre opposition, what makes you think he's going to score more hundreds against world class international opposition? Perhaps TDB isn't good enough either, but until he's had proper time to prove himself then you can't say that. I just don't know what should be deemed as enough time.. Even Amla struggled early on in his career.. 

[bertusras]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22856887/south-africa-set-miss-2017-18-transformation-target

 

 

De Bruyn has only played five Tests but his first-class numbers show great potential. He has an average of 46.27, has played in six out of the eight franchise matches this season and has scored two daddy hundreds - 195 and 190. But he has only made more than 20 once in four innings in the series against Australia, which has opened the door for Bavuma, who has not played a Test since October and any professional cricket since mid-January after suffering a broken hand, to make a return.

 

That's the paragraph that got me. CSA asked Dale Steyn to go play a first class match to prove his fitness after an extended layoff, he wasn't fit for the FC game so he got left out. Temba didn't play any meaningful cricket in months, and match fitness counts for a lot. But, because CSA are not meeting their transformation targets, their hand were forced. Had it not been for Ngidi's toe niggle, Morkel probably wouldn't have reached 300. It is what it is. Unfortunately Temba has been average. Over the last year he's averaged around 29 with the bat, three games which were against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. He also had a slow start to his career, before the big 102* came. De Bruyn should have finished the Aus tour, and if he didn't hack it by then, then it was fair enough to say sorry boet, it's not working out. 

[Mntboy]

 

 

I don't agree Mntboy. Bavuma has had 44 innings to prove himself. And for me, the only thing he has proved is that he is average. He scored 1 hundred early on, and that has kept him in the side for how long now? He is a specialist batsman, and should have a much higher avg by now.

 

TDB has only played 10 innings. 4 of those against Aus. Granted, he hasn't scored any meaningful runs yet, but his test career has just started.

 

That's why I think it is better to compare their first class averages. If Bavuma can only score 12 hundreds in 194 inns against mediocre opposition, what makes you think he's going to score more hundreds against world class international opposition? Perhaps TDB isn't good enough either, but until he's had proper time to prove himself then you can't say that. I just don't know what should be deemed as enough time.. Even Amla struggled early on in his career..

Bavuma has also played a number of knocks contained in his fifties that have helped sway the matches in South Africa's favour or helped save us from further embarrassment. His lone hundred came against England at Cape Town in a match that we so far behind it was nought but impossible to see a draw come from it. And his was one of a few that helped get a draw. Similarly in Aus in the tests we won in our last series there he and QdK shared stands that helped give us parity that the bowlers then capitalized on. Again the same thing against New Zealand in New Zealand. A similar thing happened against Bangladesh earlier in our summer and this time it was Faf that also benefited from his performances.

 

De Bruyn hasn't even done that yet. A partnership of significance that swayed a match in our favour or help get a draw. And he has been in and out of the side since the New Zealand series so I do concede that he hasn't probably had a fair chance but you do need to deliver when you're given the opportunity. Starts aren't good enough. That 36 that De Bruyn got in the first against Aus needed to be at least a 50. De Bruyn like Bavuma has faced the three best fast bowling units in the world (NZld, Eng & Aus) with nothing to show for it. Bavuma at least has something to show for it. You are looking at averages alone and I can tell you now it is resulting in a blinkered view of each player. When you get your runs is as important as how many you got. De Bruyn's failures are a worry because no one else has shown the same level of consistency in our domestic cricket. Based purely on look I reckon that De Bruyn can make the step up but based on results so far we are sitting with a saffer version of Micheal Bevan. Here's a link to his profile: http://m.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4144.html Please note his test average is also less than Bavuma's and he doesn't have a test hundred despite many hundreds in ODI matches. So in context Bavuma's numbers aren't great but it is not to say he can't improve. Obviously the same is true regarding De Bruyn but he does need to deliver when he gets given his next opportunity. AB and Hash are fast approaching the end of their careers and these guys need to be ready to take over when that happens.

 

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[Mntboy]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22856887/south-africa-set-miss-2017-18-transformation-target

 

 

That's the paragraph that got me. CSA asked Dale Steyn to go play a first class match to prove his fitness after an extended layoff, he wasn't fit for the FC game so he got left out. Temba didn't play any meaningful cricket in months, and match fitness counts for a lot. But, because CSA are not meeting their transformation targets, their hand were forced. Had it not been for Ngidi's toe niggle, Morkel probably wouldn't have reached 300. It is what it is. Unfortunately Temba has been average. Over the last year he's averaged around 29 with the bat, three games which were against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. He also had a slow start to his career, before the big 102* came. De Bruyn should have finished the Aus tour, and if he didn't hack it by then, then it was fair enough to say sorry boet, it's not working out.

From the same article that you gave the link too:

 

That means Bavuma and Ngidi could get the nod, and it is important to note that they are both regarded as equally deserving of a spot as the men they would be displacing.

 

And that is what is at play here for me beyond the transformation debate. And it is something that worryingly seems to have gone missing from view.

 

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[Shebeen]

Because TdB's First Class record is much better than TB's?

 

 

 

 

YAY, we're talking cricket!!

 

I'm a stats man, and Temba's test returns are not good enough so far.

He needs to convert starts into bigger scores, but he has played some seriously nuggety innings in his career so far.

 

Should he have played in the 3rd test match? with no recent cricket? of course not, he should have been in the a sunfoil series match the preceding weekend. It is just the way it is, with ngidi swapping with morkel it was a double move. 

 

Can Theunis kick on to the test team. with Faf, Amla, AB all well beyond 30, he will get his chance in the middle order.

 

The elephant in the room

Faf. 6 innings, runs scored 55, top score 20.

[Stretch]

I See Smith and Warner have been banned for 12 months by CA

['Dale]

3 failures from the man in the suit from Oz

 

Not holding the coach's feet to the fire as he is integral to the team's journey

Not calling it cheating after many direct questions despite any legal concerns as players have already admitted to their actions

Not apologising to the minion South Africa (in terms of the superstructure of ICC) and its public for what the hell just happened.

[leeubok]

Mntboy, it seems you're the only Bavuma fan around here.. 

 

I hope CA now shift their focus to the coaching staff..

[leeubok]

From the same article that you gave the link too:

 

That means Bavuma and Ngidi could get the nod, and it is important to note that they are both regarded as equally deserving of a spot as the men they would be displacing.

 

And that is what is at play here for me beyond the transformation debate. And it is something that worryingly seems to have gone missing from view.

 

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Unfortunately, thanks to CSA's transformation targets, that is not true. Or rather, it places a seed of doubt in supporters' minds. Because this is the exact scenario that played out:

 

Bavuma gets injured, De Bruyn has to come in for him. Morkel gets dropped for Ngidi. Ngidi gets injured and Morkel replaces him, so TDB gets dropped for Bavuma who is still not 100% over his niggle it seems. When these sort of selections happen you can't but help wonder if the best 11 players are on the field.. 

 

And I like Ngidi. I think once Morkel goes and he gets an extended run he'll get better and better. But do I think he was good enough to replace Morkel? No..

[Napalm]

I See Smith and Warner have been banned for 12 months by CA

 

I somehow feel (slightly) sorry for Smith - cause from what I read it seems like Warner and Bancroft were the main instigators, not him.  Smith went along with it - he deserves a ban as well - but at least he and Bancroft had the balls to own up to their mistake.  Warner ran away on his stumpy little legs and hid in a corner.