Snakes

[The Drongo]

Where I work there are many snakes. Some would like to bite you where the sun don't shine. Otheres might prefer a more subtle snack; balls is allways a welcome adition. These are not allways female snakes. Balls are apparantly more apatising than we might have thought.

The lesser spotted trouser snake is perhaps the most aggresive of all snakes; when confronted with one of these it is best to make loud lapping sounds in the hope that the beast might go away.

 

Hello firewolf.

 

Glad to see that you are still 'normal'.

[The Drongo]

With you on that, AFIK anti-venom is made by injecting horses with the venom so it forms anti-bodies that combat the venom (feel free to correct me here) so basically the anti-venom is more venom and needs to be of the specific snake

I would think one can try suck out as much of the venom as possible and then make some kind of tourniqet (sp?) to stop it spreading further. Heat or cold can also be applied but that differs per venom type.

 

The only thing you got right there was the spelling of tourniquet. There was a skit once about a guy getting bit on his ass. And asking his mate to 'suck it'. :lol:

 

 

Thanks Pezulu - +1 for you sir!

 

My biggest worry is the Puffies. Most snakes will move away when they hear movement or at least give you some kind of warning before they strike, but with the Puffies you won't even know they were there until it's too late.

 

Learner.

[Cippo]

Just affirming what most hubbers have said here. Dont suck on the wound , doesnt work. Compression bandage helps applying it from as high up on the limb and working toward the wound, crepe bandage works well. Carrying antivenom is a no no as its expensive, is snake specific. Only certain hospitals keep it so check which one in your area if youre concerned about it. Otherwise hospitals do supportive managemant. Puffies are bad news as the venom damages the tissue at the site and you get bad septiceamia of limb leading to gangarene and then possible amputation of limb if left untreated. Cobras etc have neurotoxic venom attacking your central nervous system so your body is paralysed , you drop you stop breathing you die. If your buddy knows Cpr, good.Hopsital will put you on a ventilator until you can breathe on your own if you make it to them. Best chance you have of survival is find out who is the helicopter rescue service in your area. In the Western Cape, Free State, Natal ( Durban, Richards Bay) Nelspruit and Polokwane its the Red Cross Air Mercy Service in conjuction with the Dpt of Health. Gauteng has Netcare. Discovery has a heli in Cpt with ER24. Keep a cellphone, medical aid, drivers licence with you always. Private hospitals dont like med aid cards without form of id with you. 107 is the number you wanna call if you dont have the above organisations. Try and get a proper bearing on your position or gps co-ordinates. It makes it easier for heli to find you. Send someone if possible for help. People do survive snake bites its not all doom n gloom.

[leet22]

Guys one thing we must rememeber. Most of you are fit healthy guys and unless its a black mamba bite very far from medical help the chances of pegging are slim.

[montyzuma]

I'm posting this in the interests of accuracy and to correct a few misconceptions that are obvious from the posts here.

Pezulu's post is generally accurate and his advice is sound, but there are a few additional bits of info that might be of use to the forum.

 

You don't have to identify the snake in order to treat envenomation effectively.

Venomous snakebites typically cause three syndromes, and are treated on the symptoms:

1.Pain & swelling

2. Weakness/paralysis

3. Bleeding

(There is some syndrome overlap but it is beyond the scope of discussion here)

 

Symptomatic treatment is logical because most bites do not result in envenomation, and snake identification is often inaccurate or the snake is never even seen (many envenomations occur at night) .

Symptoms of envenomation will appear within an hour - If symptoms and signs of poisoning have not become apparent within 1 hour, significant envenomation has not occurred. The EXCEPTION to this is bleeding in boomslang bites.

 

90% of venomous bites in SA cause pain & swelling. They are caused by cytotoxic snakes (adders, vipers, spitting cobras). There will be significant pain and swelling within minutes. Tourniquet use is absolutely CONTRA-INDICATED. There is no massive urgent emergency - you have time to get to a hospital, where treatment may or may not require antivenom.

Boomslang bites cause bleeding - typically some hours, even day+ later. Again no massive urgency to get to hospital after bite - you have time.

 

Mamba & Cape Cobra bites are neurotoxic - they cause progressive weakness/paralysis. These are true emergencies with no time to waste to get to a hospital.

If you are alone you are in trouble. If you are riding with mates then first-aid principles apply. An arterial tourniquet could be life-saving, but they are very uncomfortable and cannot be left on for more than 90 min. Mouth to mouth breathing will maintin your mate's life if he can't breathe. Cardiac compressions are not required - the patient is just paralysed and can't breathe for himself. You may have to keep breathing for him/her for a PROLONGED period until you can get help.

In this situation antivenom would be of help, BUT it needs to be given intravenously, so you need to have all the paraphenalia with you, and be able to get a line up, etc. There is a high incidence of allergic reactions, so you would need to premedicate with IV antihistamine. Antivenom needs to be refrigerated to remain effective, so you wold have to carry it in an ice pack....

Basically it's not practical.

 

The essential message for you as cyclists is:

Apply standard first aid principles.

Cutting, sucking, heating, freezing, steak tenderiser, etc etc are all BS and make no difference.

Use an arterial tourniquet for DEFINITELY identified Mamba & Cape Cobra bites, or with rapid onset of progressive weakness/difficulty breathing or for the particular symptoms of a mamba bite (pins & needles around the mouth, excessive saivation/sweating & metallic taste in mouth).

Compression bandaging has not been shown to work in South Africa. (Based on Australian research-different venoms)

Mouth to mouth ventilation for paralysis can save a life.

Eye envenomation by spitting cobras: wash the eye out with copious quantities of water (ideally), energy drink, or urine if no other alternatives.

Go to hospital for assessment of all bites, even if asymptomatic.

 

Although you aren't going to use it, here are a few facts on antivenom to clear up the misconceptions:

There are only two antivenoms available in SA:

1. Polyvalent antivenom: for all significantly venomous snakes in SA except Boomslang. It is highly effective when used for the right indications.

Venoms used as antigens in the preparation of polyvalent antiserum: puff adder, Gaboon viper, rinkhals, black mamba, green mamba, Jameson's mamba, Cape cobra, forest cobra, Egyptian cobra, Mozambique spitting cobra. So no effect at all for any other species.

2. Boomslang monovalent antivenom, for Boomslang bites only.

They are still produced from horse serum. The incidence of anaphylactoid reactions is up to 75% for polyvalent antiserum in South African studies.

Edited December 28, 2011 by montyzuma

[johannrissik]

Hale-#$#@#-lujaha !!

 

Thanks MontyZuma, sense prevails

[SwissVan]

+1 to montyzuma for the most interesting post I've seen today, just 1 question:

Jameson mamba, wtheck's that?

[King_Crispy]

+1 to montyzuma for the most interesting post I've seen today, just 1 question:

Jameson mamba, wtheck's that?

 

 

As David Attenborough would have said : "It's closely related to the Bells Biting Cobra"

[Wayne Potgieter]

+1 to montyzuma for the most interesting post I've seen today, just 1 question:

Jameson mamba, wtheck's that?

 

Its when you have too much of this and whip out your mamba!

[montyzuma]

+1 to montyzuma for the most interesting post I've seen today, just 1 question:

Jameson mamba, wtheck's that?

 

 

Dendroaspis jamesoni

 

Basically looks like a green mamba.

Doubt many people would know the difference

 

 

.

Edited December 28, 2011 by montyzuma

[JoziNinja]

Had a ran(Cycled) in to a Rinkhals two days ago. Scary as hell when it stands up gets spit ready. I also find energy like there is no tomorrow. 3rd time now it has happened. This one being the biggest.

 

Don't go anywhere with out your phone. At least you can get hold of someone. If your phone is to fancy get a a cheapy and always make sure it is charged and has a working sim.

[Motard660]

I'm posting this in the interests of accuracy and to correct a few misconceptions that are obvious from the posts here.

Pezulu's post is generally accurate and his advice is sound, but there are a few additional bits of info that might be of use to the forum.

 

You don't have to identify the snake in order to treat envenomation effectively.

Venomous snakebites typically cause three syndromes, and are treated on the symptoms:

1.Pain & swelling

2. Weakness/paralysis

3. Bleeding

(There is some syndrome overlap but it is beyond the scope of discussion here)

 

Symptomatic treatment is logical because most bites do not result in envenomation, and snake identification is often inaccurate or the snake is never even seen (many envenomations occur at night) .

Symptoms of envenomation will appear within an hour - If symptoms and signs of poisoning have not become apparent within 1 hour, significant envenomation has not occurred. The EXCEPTION to this is bleeding in boomslang bites.

 

90% of venomous bites in SA cause pain & swelling. They are caused by cytotoxic snakes (adders, vipers, spitting cobras). There will be significant pain and swelling within minutes. Tourniquet use is absolutely CONTRA-INDICATED. There is no massive urgent emergency - you have time to get to a hospital, where treatment may or may not require antivenom.

Boomslang bites cause bleeding - typically some hours, even day+ later. Again no massive urgency to get to hospital after bite - you have time.

 

Mamba & Cape Cobra bites are neurotoxic - they cause progressive weakness/paralysis. These are true emergencies with no time to waste to get to a hospital.

If you are alone you are in trouble. If you are riding with mates then first-aid principles apply. An arterial tourniquet could be life-saving, but they are very uncomfortable and cannot be left on for more than 90 min. Mouth to mouth breathing will maintin your mate's life if he can't breathe. Cardiac compressions are not required - the patient is just paralysed and can't breathe for himself. You may have to keep breathing for him/her for a PROLONGED period until you can get help.

In this situation antivenom would be of help, BUT it needs to be given intravenously, so you need to have all the paraphenalia with you, and be able to get a line up, etc. There is a high incidence of allergic reactions, so you would need to premedicate with IV antihistamine. Antivenom needs to be refrigerated to remain effective, so you wold have to carry it in an ice pack....

Basically it's not practical.

 

The essential message for you as cyclists is:

Apply standard first aid principles.

Cutting, sucking, heating, freezing, steak tenderiser, etc etc are all BS and make no difference.

Use an arterial tourniquet for DEFINITELY identified Mamba & Cape Cobra bites, or with rapid onset of progressive weakness/difficulty breathing or for the particular symptoms of a mamba bite (pins & needles around the mouth, excessive saivation/sweating & metallic taste in mouth).

Compression bandaging has not been shown to work in South Africa. (Based on Australian research-different venoms)

Mouth to mouth ventilation for paralysis can save a life.

Eye envenomation by spitting cobras: wash the eye out with copious quantities of water (ideally), energy drink, or urine if no other alternatives.

Go to hospital for assessment of all bites, even if asymptomatic.

 

Although you aren't going to use it, here are a few facts on antivenom to clear up the misconceptions:

There are only two antivenoms available in SA:

1. Polyvalent antivenom: for all significantly venomous snakes in SA except Boomslang. It is highly effective when used for the right indications.

Venoms used as antigens in the preparation of polyvalent antiserum: puff adder, Gaboon viper, rinkhals, black mamba, green mamba, Jameson's mamba, Cape cobra, forest cobra, Egyptian cobra, Mozambique spitting cobra. So no effect at all for any other species.

2. Boomslang monovalent antivenom, for Boomslang bites only.

They are still produced from horse serum. The incidence of anaphylactoid reactions is up to 75% for polyvalent antiserum in South African studies.

 

 

Great Post!!

[Cippo]

Just to clarify something CPR is not indicated should you stop breathing due to paralysis but if you do stop breathing chances are you heart will stop in a min or two. Great post montyzuma. +1

[Big J-WP]

Came across this yesterday morning while riding. Snake getting its morning mouse in...

Edited December 28, 2011 by Big J-WP

[NotSoBigBen]

Some of the workers at my mates place of employment in Vanderbijl killed this today

 

[The Drongo]

@Pronutro and Montyzuma. Well put. Your interest in the Slithery Ones is apparent.

Be happy to ride with you in snake country any day.

Knowledge always trumps fear. That said, all the knowledge in the world certainly doesn’t take away your initially response when you are bitten by a snake the first time. But it sure does help you get it under control!

Montyzuma. Considering your use of the word syndrome, I make some assumptions that you are in either the medical field, or the field of herpetology etc. So any disagreement/differences in application I have with some of your methods are based simply on my personal experience and interest in snakes, and the necessity to understand how to deal with bites. Which I have suffered.

 

So possibly an explanation of "envenomation" would help to put the Hubbers in a slightly better frame of mind, and assist in understanding snake bite. Thus…

 

To the large degree most venomous snakes are able to control the muscles surrounding the venom glands. This means that they can choose whether or not to inject venom during a bite, and to what degree, or what amount of venom they inject.

This all depends on the degree of threat (from their perspective), time of year, and a few other factors.

What we understand from this is that not all physical bites are necessarily dangerous, bearing in mind too that there are harmless snakes which can also strike and bite you.

As in the case of most reactions, the outcome for the victim will depend on a variety of factors, including physical activity, the victims sensitivity to venom (not just snakes), the degree of envenomation in terms of the victims body mass, ie: larger body mass will react less negatively to the same amount of venom injected into someone with a smaller body mass.

 

So, envenomation means that a snake bites AND injects venom.

 

A bite may consist of a puncture wound, or a number, or even deep or shallow scratches. All bites should be considered harmful until it has been proved by medical opinion that they are in fact not. Wound infection from the bite of a harmless snake can also be problematic.

If envenomation has occurred then a puncture wound will generally exhibit greater symptoms than a scratch wound, but both should be treated as serious.

Unlike sharks, and some other predators, identification of a snake from the wound is seldom (if ever) possible.

So always try, leaving assumptions aside, to have a good look at the snake without further jeopardising your health. If possible try and capture a picture with the cell phone that you should have available. Also make note of the particular environment and its activity at the time. These can give some clues as to the type.

 

The FIRST thing to do is to remove YOURSELF from the vicinity of the snake. Trying to kill something that moves quicker than you can blink is generally going to end badly for the slowest blinker!

 

Here is the POINT: If a snake has simply warned you the first time; meaning that its initial bite was WITHOUT venom, further aggravating it will mean that the next bite will be in response to the threat, and envenomation WILL occur, and to a heightened degree.

(If you have foolishly ‘killed’ it, be sure it is dead as some snakes are able to sham death until they feel they are able to get another bite in.)

 

The SECOND thing to do is to remain calm. Like in any life threatening situation, the calmer you remain, the greater the likelihood of your survival ! A victim has a good few hours, even in the event of mamba or cobra bites, before death is inevitable, so again, stay calm. Over 95% of snakebites will not be fatal (statistically).

 

Contacting medical aid should be your very next activity. Try and give accurate positioning, even stay connected if you are alone. If at all possible just stay where you are and let them come to you.

 

First aid treatment is then the next step. In general this requires an understanding of the type of venom. If one is not able to identify the snake, then symptomatic response has to be taken.

 

In other words, application of tourniquet, pressure, pressure bandage can greatly assist in reducing the rapidity with which the venom reacts, but if misapplied can actually be an exacerbating factor, and in the event of envenomation by mamba or cobras can waste precious time. In other words. If you are not 100% knowlegable as to the application, don't waste time doing it.

 

Application of tourniquet should be done in the event of KNOWN neurotoxic envenomation by the snakes mentioned below.

 

Basically:

 

Neurotoxic venom will include pain at the bite, minimal swelling. Drowsiness, blurred vision, sweating and vomiting. This leads to trouble swallowing and eventually respiratory paralysis.

This is where pressure applied to the wound, as well as a pressure bandage will help slow the onset of the life threatening symptoms. This method of treatment is questionable for bites by South African species, and can aggravate problems if poorly applied.

In the event of a bite by Mamba or non-spitting Cobras a tourniquet can be life saving. Monitor swelling (caused by the constriction of the body part) and release for 5 seconds or so every 30, to 90 minutes max. Prolonged use of a tourniquet can cause severe tissue damage on its own.

 

Cytotoxic venom includes burning pain at the wound, coupled with progressive swelling, and possibly some symptoms of drowsiness.

In this case, do not apply a pressure bandage, as immediate and advancing swelling will complicate matters.

 

(Some snakes venom can exhibit both NeuroT and CytoT symptoms – Berg Adder )

 

Haemotoxic venom will cause little or no swelling, continuous oozing of blood from the wound.

Headaches and confusion are only followed much later by signs similar to neurotoxic envenomation, namely severe sweating, nausea and vomiting.

 

Yes, I can hear you all saying – “excessive sweating, difficulty breathing!”. They are also symptoms of shock, along with rapid heartbeat, dizziness etc.

So try your best, as the first aider, to assess which is which. Which means, as the victim, it is in your interests to get hold of yourself mentally, and remain calm.

 

If you are unable to administer first aid, then the following do’s and don’ts apply.

 

DO NOT:

Cut, squeeze or rub the wound

Suck on the wound

Give alcohol

Apply any form of medication

Try any other of Grandmas recipies

 

DO:

Call for help

Keep the victim still and calm

Immobilize the limb, but do not elevate.

 

Statistically, as a cyclist, you have more to fear from vehicles, accident and your fellow man than you do from snakes.

 

Remember: We fear only what we do not understand.

 

Happy holidays.

 

EDIT: I have edited this post due to an error in the application of pointed out by Montyzuma (who has credible experience in this field ), and in the interests of all who may have close encounters with the legless kind!

Edited December 30, 2011 by The Drongo