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Posted

on my first sani2c I had my first doubt that I was a doper.

 

I had fallen a week before the start, badly hurt my knee. During Sani I was taking pain pills, anti inflam pills and I took alot of them. I used them to just finish. But without them I doubt I would have finished. I am sure if I was tested I would have been banned from even walking into a pharmacy again, let alone the sport. The question I always ask, was I cheating ? Does not matter that we came 3rd last. It matters to me that I "cheated".

 

Was it on WADA's banned list? If not, then its not cheating. Its that simple. Everyone here is trying to make it grey.

 

If its on the list, its banned and you're cheating, if its not, use it all you want

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Posted

why are you commenting then? And why give your opinions without wanting to justify them with facts and research ?

 

I am adding comment because I want to not to enlighten, convince or entertain you.

Don't need to justify anything to you actually, you are someone who has spent vast amounts of time convincing yourself that bread is bad for you and now you want me to waste my time convincing you why taking EPO responsibly is bad for you? How about taking cocaine responsibly? Emphasis on responsibly?

 

Okay, if you insist or are too lazy:

 

This from Wiki:

 

The simple act of increasing the number of red blood cells in blood raises its viscosity, which can cause it to clot or coagulate more readily.[20] This increases the chances of heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism, which has been seen in cases where there is too much blood reintroduced into the blood stream. Because blood doping increases the volume of red blood cells, it effectively introduces a condition called polycythemia, a blood disorder that has known adverse outcomes.

 

This from sportsmedicine.about.com:

 

 

Is Erythropoietin (EPO) Dangerous?

 

Yes, EPO has its dangers. EPO injections thicken the blood, which increases the strain on the heart. This is particularly dangerous when the heart rate slows down, such as during sleep. The increased thickness, or viscosity, of the blood increases the risk of blood clots, heart attacks, and strokes. According to the book "The death of Marco Pantani" by Matt Rendell, some cyclists reportedly set an alarm each night to wake up and cycle on a trainer for ten minutes to jump-start their circulation and reduce the possible health risks of using EPO.

 

This from medicalconsumers.org:

 

This is the true story of an expensive anti-anemia drug that came on the market for one purpose; was heavily promoted for several unproven uses; and how the drive for profits led two drug companies to commit fraud. Kathleen Sharp, a veteran investigative reporter, describes what happened from the perspective of a drug salesman whose company pressured him into achieving higher and higher sales targets. The drug maker provided a playbook of tactics known to manipulate physicians into writing more prescriptions and at higher, more dangerous, doses. Eventually, the drug salesman-turned-whistleblower comes to the horrifying conclusion that over a half a million people have died as a result of this drug. Its benefits, if any, remain unclear; its safety never established. It is still on the market.

Central to the story is one of the first biotech drugs to go on the market. Erythropoietin is the man-made version of human erythropoietin, which is produced naturally in the body and stimulates the bone marrow to make red blood cells. Epo, as it is called, became known as a “blood booster,” sold by Amgen and Johnson & Johnson under the brand names: Procrit, Epogen, Aranesp, and Eprex (Europe).

 

Sorry, cop out or not, I am not going to read it all out loud for you.

Use it, don't use it, half million deaths is more than heroin killed last year, even when used responsibly...

Posted

 

 

This sound like double standards to me. It's recreational use. Why does anybody care ? Caffeine, nicotine, cortisol, cortisone, sugar, dagga, the list is long. everyone is affected differently. you can make the case that all enhances the performance of somebody over another ... Get my point ?

 

 

Definition

 

Main article: Responsible drug use

The concept of "responsible drug use" is that a person can use drugs recreationally or otherwise with reduced or eliminated risk of negatively affecting other aspects of one's life or other people's lives

 

Possibly but I personally dont think so. The guy is riding to compete and survive. I am sure a finish was a massive achievement which would have been much easier without the injury and no need for the meds he had to take. Alternative would have been to bail, not cool.

Posted

Sorry, cop out or not, I am not going to read it all out loud for you.

 

Use it, don't use it, half million deaths is more than heroin killed last year, even when used responsibly...

 

 

You have given no proof. You quoted the perspective of a drug salesman ! You should know I am definitely not lazy. I welcome scientific debate, not hearsay ... People that die from heroine and cocaine are definitely not using it responsibly. You still don't get my point ... People die from alcohol abuse, that does not prevent millions of people from using it "responsibly " Red wine has proven benefits as well. EPO is prescribed in many cases for proven benefits, if used responsibly. Please do educate yourself. Google is free, as you say.

Posted

Possibly but I personally dont think so. The guy is riding to compete and survive. I am sure a finish was a massive achievement which would have been much easier without the injury and no need for the meds he had to take. Alternative would have been to bail, not cool.

 

It's amazing how prejudice can cloud the mind. How many people do bail a race, or even don't start because they get ill? Just to finish such a race is competing against others not able to. My point is it should not matter. nobody should care. It's recreational. his choice , his life. why would I care. It's only if you put such value onto it, that you give a *&^% anyway of who wins or who finishes. If you want to pay a small fortune to "compete" in a race as that, it's really your problem, and nobody's else's. Just don't come and bragg to me that you "did the epic " LoL

Posted

Ignorance of the law/rules is not an excuse.

 

The information on banned substances are readily available. Each time i go to the doc and get medicine, i check to see if it is a banned substance. I have a csa license, and thus i am bound by the rules as set out by them.

 

trust me, im am nowhere near contention for a podium (other than a very consistent beer lover) but when i race, the rules are the same for me as for the other competitors.

 

it's the same as driving through the intersection when the light has just turned red, lots of people are doing it, and getting away with it. but it's still against the law. can you live with yourself when you do it? Will you accept the punishment when you get caught? or will you make an excuse (late for meeting, everyone else is doing it...blah blah blah

 

for me it's like the helmet debate in america - let those who ride, decide...

 

once you make the decision, you have to live with the consequences.

Posted

Erythropoietin is a natural substance occurring in your body and is required for red blood cell production.. it is not fatal! The absence of it will be fatal. Like everything else it can have some nasty side-effect (above)...

 

gonna sleep now... getting too pedantic

 

Careful with this one - Synthesized EPO is NOT exactly the same as the naturally occurring hormone - and does have side effects - correctly used for medical reasons, it is a fantastic thing and helps an enourmous number of people.

 

But improving your sporting performance is not and never will be a medical reason - and prescribing it for such use is an offence (legally and morally for a practitioner).

 

I really struggle with why someone who commits a lifetime of work to helping other people, commits to doing the best possible for others, and presumably is of sound mind would even consider helping someone to cheat in a way that could affect their long term health and the wellbeing of those around them - this is probably much more pronounced for those ID10T's that assist schoolkids and primarily bodybuilder/power lifter types with steriod use (huge potential complication sets) - those people should be taken to task as much as the athlete - they are just as guilty - if not more so.

 

Maybe I sometimes see things a little too clearly in black and white....

Posted

Careful with this one - Synthesized EPO is NOT exactly the same as the naturally occurring hormone - and does have side effects - correctly used for medical reasons, it is a fantastic thing and helps an enourmous number of people.

 

But improving your sporting performance is not and never will be a medical reason - and prescribing it for such use is an offence (legally and morally for a practitioner).

 

 

I'll give you a swingball... Suppose you have anemia, or low red blood count, that's a medical reason for an EPO subscription. Now to what level would you regard it ethical for him to take his hematocrit up to ? No matter what that level are, he is going to be above some others. Is that wrong ?

 

Btw, another very good reason to up your hematocrit by taking EPO is for cognitative reasons, ie to improve your brain function. Not enough good reason on its own ?

Guest ctMTBer
Posted

Was it on WADA's banned list? If not, then its not cheating. Its that simple. Everyone here is trying to make it grey.

 

If its on the list, its banned and you're cheating, if its not, use it all you want

 

So if I hurt my "some inflamed part of the body" and the doc gives me something for the inflamation and I dont know if it is on the list and I come 419th in the puttiesfontein 87km road race, I am a cheater?

Posted

I'll give you a swingball... Suppose you have anemia, or low red blood count, that's a medical reason for an EPO subscription. Now to what level would you regard it ethical for him to take his hematocrit up to ? No matter what that level are, he is going to be above some others. Is that wrong ?

 

Btw, another very good reason to up your hematocrit by taking EPO is for cognitative reasons, ie to improve your brain function. Not enough good reason on its own ?

 

Out of interest, what does the rules of cycling/CSA say? Is EPO on the banned list and if yes, can it be taken if you have a medical reason?

 

I know about the asthma thing where more than half of the pro field "has" asthma and can use the pump for "medical reasons".

Posted

So if I hurt my "some inflamed part of the body" and the doc gives me something for the inflamation and I dont know if it is on the list and I come 419th in the puttiesfontein 87km road race, I am a cheater?

 

Technically it's your responsibility to check anything you eat or take, whether it steaks, medicine, etc. Even if it's tainted it's still your responsibility. But isn't that Frank Schleck's defence - he was given something he didn't know?

Posted

Out of interest, what does the rules of cycling/CSA say? Is EPO on the banned list and if yes, can it be taken if you have a medical reason?

 

I know about the asthma thing where more than half of the pro field "has" asthma and can use the pump for "medical reasons".

 

you see, that is the point. where is the line now ? All people who have asthma not to be allowed to compete in cycling races. surely they have unfair advantage over those that don't have asthma ... ???

Posted (edited)

I have a natural hematocrit higher than rider A but have asthma and rider A don't have asthma. I am allowed to take something for my asthma, rider A are not allowed to take something for his lower hematocrit ... double standards .

Edited by Topwine
Guest ctMTBer
Posted

Technically it's your responsibility to check anything you eat or take, whether it steaks, medicine, etc. Even if it's tainted it's still your responsibility. But isn't that Frank Schleck's defence - he was given something he didn't know?

 

Then I bet you 90 % of the August finishers will fail a test....does that mean that they are all cheaters (technically yes they are) but are they in all off our eyes?

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