LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[Grondpad]

LCHF for 12 months, die hard, fully committed, full ketosis, test every day, spinning instructor at VA. If someone in class asks for advice on diet or race nutrition do I give it? No ways. I'm terrified to. I want to tell everyone how well I've done, how fantastic I feel, but I don't. I want to tell everyone not to believe the bull**** they've been fed for years about nutrition and see the LCHF light. And I'm just a humble fitness guy, I'm no doctor, professor, medical aid director. What Prof. Noakes has done took big nuts. What massive effort will it take to turn around the med aids and insurance companies who are entrenched in the prudent diet and reliant on maintaining the status quo? Daunting.

 

I (and I think many on this topic) would really appreciate it if you could give us some info on your training and eating. As a spinning instructor I presume you do a lot of high intensity sessions. I found that for me interval training does the job even though many advocate Maffetones principles but I cannot get my HR to stay that low. Have you seen a dip en then an increase in watts pushed out? How long before you returned to normal power after going LCHF? What do you use as a recovery meal afterwards? Can you sustain the high HR over a prolonged period? Did it vary over time?

 

Your feedback would be great!!

[davetapson]

Attended a chat with Dr Jeroen Swart at Cyclefunatic in Durbanville last night and although some of it was a product pitch for Cadence (his range of performance products) I thought it was quite interesting that he is beginning to acknowledge that LCHF has a place (he specifically mentioned T2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome as potential candidates). He also mentioned the benefits that the UK cycling team has had from being on a LCHP type diet, and that they are achieving massive training adaptation improvements by having the guys train in a fasted state (but consuming carbs on the bike as needed). He mentioned that SSI are busy with extensive trails on fat-adaptation and "sleep low train low" training, so I think we are about to uncover a whole lot of new learning from the work they are doing.

 

Very impressive talk and whether you like Jeroen or not, he has a wealth of knowledge and a unique ability to captivate his audience !

 

Edit : JS endorsed the Phil Maffetone approach to training, which was great news for me !

 

Very interesting indeed!

[jcza]

Interesting section on www.leangains.com about starvation mode

 

Efficient adaptation to famine was important for survival during rough times in our evolution. Lowering metabolic rate during starvation allowed us to live longer, increasing the possibility that we might come across something to eat. Starvation literally means starvation. It doesn't mean skipping a meal not eating for 24 hours. Or not eating for three days even. The belief that meal skipping or short-term fasting causes "starvation mode" is so completely ridiculous and absurd that it makes me want to jump out the window.

 

Looking at the numerous studies I've read, the earliest evidence for lowered metabolic rate in response to fasting occurred after 60 hours (-8% in resting metabolic rate). Other studies show metabolic rate is not impacted until 72-96 hours have passed (George Cahill has contributed a lot on this topic).

 

Seemingly paradoxical, metabolic rate is actually increased in short-term fasting. For some concrete numbers, studies have shown an increase of 3.6% - 10% after 36-48 hours (Mansell PI, et al, and Zauner C, et al). This makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Epinephrine and norepinephrine (adrenaline/noradrenaline) sharpens the mind and makes us want to move around. Desirable traits that encouraged us to seek for food, or for the hunter to kill his prey, increasing survival. At some point, after several days of no eating, this benefit would confer no benefit to survival and probably would have done more harm than good; instead, an adaptation that favored conservation of energy turned out to be advantageous. Thus metabolic rate is increased in short-term fasting (up to 60 hours).

[davetapson]

Thus metabolic rate is increased in short-term fasting (up to 60 hours).

 

Which may explain why short term fasting is useful for weightloss?

[HippoPal]

Random post.

 

I don't take many meds - melatonin and the occasional Compral - but none-the-less found this link worth holding on to: CHO content of some meds ...

 

http://www.ketomeds.com/KetoMeds.htm

[HippoPal]

...Thus metabolic rate is increased in short-term fasting (up to 60 hours).

 

Ah ha! I have been reading posts on JUDDD (www.johnsonupdaydowndaydiet.com/html/how-to-do-the-diet.html) on the lowcarbfriends forum and am intrigued by the concept - 1 Up Day alternating with 1 Down Day. Combining this with LCHF seems very do-able.

[htone]

Ah ha! I have been reading posts on JUDDD (www.johnsonupdaydowndaydiet.com/html/how-to-do-the-diet.html) on the lowcarbfriends forum and am intrigued by the concept - 1 Up Day alternating with 1 Down Day. Combining this with LCHF seems very do-able.

 

It is actually really easy to do, provided that you make the meal before the fast a really fatty one.

 

Another little trick is to do the following, if you can stomach fats/oils on their own: I mix a teaspoon of Nomu into a cup of Coconut Oil and keep that on the side as an "emergency snack". If you like the taste of coconut oil on its own, leave the Nomu out. If you start to feel hungry during the mini-fast, simply chow down a spoonful of coconut oil. The oil sends a very solid satiety signal that keeps the hunger at bay and the beauty of this is that Coconut Oil cannot be stored in the body - it is either burned as energy or excreted. Don't take my word for it, Google it !

[htone]

Which may explain why short term fasting is useful for weightloss?

 

The point JS made last night is that there is a huge training adaptation that takes place when training in a fasting state - so much so that he has several of the athletes that he is coaching on this regime. So there may be much more than just a weight-loss benefit !

[2wheelsgood]

I've gone back and read this thread in its entirety, since it seemed to deserve it (very rare on a .za forum, sadly). DAMN I wish I'd been following it in winter, that was when I started experimenting with keto. I struggled with cycling for a couple of weeks before deciding keto was good for fat loss, not good for cycling. I'm a commuter not a racer, and it's a bummer when you want to get home but your legs seem completely uninterested in getting up the hill.

 

Now I've read how having energy but no power is a normal part of the adaptation process... ugh might have to go through it again. Maybe not as bad, I've been doing low-carb for some months, but I wanna tighten it up and keto properly with the aim of it being permanent.

 

It is now clear to me that it's important to keep my heart rate low, just gear down and spin.

And I now also know to add salt generously (I recently read "Art and science of low carb" by Volek/Phinney) Got some pink salt from Woolworths on the weekend, I hope it's the real deal.

 

Question though: regarding illness, it seems dry toast and flat Coke is a common response for upset stomachs. Is this simply for easily digestable energy? What's the low GI alternative?

For more serious illness or cases of prolonged inability to eat, is there any hope of not getting a glucose drip in a hospital?

[jcza]

I've gone back and read this thread in its entirety, since it seemed to deserve it (very rare on a .za forum, sadly). DAMN I wish I'd been following it in winter, that was when I started experimenting with keto. I struggled with cycling for a couple of weeks before deciding keto was good for fat loss, not good for cycling. I'm a commuter not a racer, and it's a bummer when you want to get home but your legs seem completely uninterested in getting up the hill.

 

Now I've read how having energy but no power is a normal part of the adaptation process... ugh might have to go through it again. Maybe not as bad, I've been doing low-carb for some months, but I wanna tighten it up and keto properly with the aim of it being permanent.

 

It is now clear to me that it's important to keep my heart rate low, just gear down and spin.

And I now also know to add salt generously (I recently read "Art and science of low carb" by Volek/Phinney) Got some pink salt from Woolworths on the weekend, I hope it's the real deal.

 

Question though: regarding illness, it seems dry toast and flat Coke is a common response for upset stomachs. Is this simply for easily digestable energy? What's the low GI alternative?

For more serious illness or cases of prolonged inability to eat, is there any hope of not getting a glucose drip in a hospital?

 

If you're unable to eat then try Ensure

[jcza]

The point JS made last night is that there is a huge training adaptation that takes place when training in a fasting state - so much so that he has several of the athletes that he is coaching on this regime. So there may be much more than just a weight-loss benefit !

 

If one trains at low HR then we have enough fat for fuel, however I don't believe any high intensity training can happen in a fasting state. Maybe I'm wrong?

[eitan]

Did you heat the lard before whipping it, or did you use it at room temp ?

It was still a bit stiff, so I heated it slightly to melt it, probably around 40 degrees.

I put what was left in the fridge, but it should be served at room temp - it is too lardy when cold.

[DaleE]

The point JS made last night is that there is a huge training adaptation that takes place when training in a fasting state - so much so that he has several of the athletes that he is coaching on this regime. So there may be much more than just a weight-loss benefit !

 

I think that the benefit of reduced need for fuelling for long distance athletes is fairly well established by now. What is really interesting about JS's comments is that he was always of the opinion that "lchf makes you slow" and you had to have carbs to race. From what I recall, 'his athletes' are not back-of-the-pack types, so if he is now training folk with this regime, am curious about what has changed his mind.

 

Also, it's really encouraging when doctors are prepared to look at new ideas and try them out for themselves. I recall having conversations about lchf with him 2 years ago (I did rehab with him) and at the time he was very sceptical, so kudos to him for being open minded.

[jcza]

I think that the benefit of reduced need for fuelling for long distance athletes is fairly well established by now. What is really interesting about JS's comments is that he was always of the opinion that "lchf makes you slow" and you had to have carbs to race. From what I recall, 'his athletes' are not back-of-the-pack types, so if he is now training folk with this regime, am curious about what has changed his mind.

 

Also, it's really encouraging when doctors are prepared to look at new ideas and try them out for themselves. I recall having conversations about lchf with him 2 years ago (I did rehab with him) and at the time he was very sceptical, so kudos to him for being open minded.

 

I'm sure that training at low intensity is no carb but racing is with carb. Maybe the doc himself can comment?

[DaleE]

If one trains at low HR then we have enough fat for fuel, however I don't believe any high intensity training can happen in a fasting state. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

hmmm, not sure I agree. From a personal n=1, non scientific, non double blinded, not randomised anything test ....

 

In March of this year I started going to gym again. It's a boot camp style high intensity hour twice a week with a personal trainer who clearly hates me

I can find no difference in performance for any of the following: Performance based on feeling and HR

1. have eaten breakfast that day (gym sessions always at lunch)

2. last meal was supper the night before

3. last meal was lunch the day before.

 

Always only had water in the time between meals. Meal composition was strictly lchf with about 60g Carb daily, no alcohol, carb from green sources and dairy only.

What I did notice was blood ketone levels were always higher after fasted exercise but about the same before the exercise. I don't understand why this happens and could not find anything on the web about it.

BG levels not affected.

 

So, like I said, it's just a simple n=1 test that proves bugger-all except that the trainer still hates me

 

As an aside, one of the benefits of lchf for me is a total lack of reliance on food. I've stopped structuring my day around meals - just eat when I'm hungry, exercise or not.

Edited November 13, 2013 by DaleE

[HippoPal]

... If you start to feel hungry during the mini-fast, simply chow down a spoonful of coconut oil. The oil sends a very solid satiety signal that keeps the hunger at bay and the beauty of this is that Coconut Oil cannot be stored in the body - it is either burned as energy or excreted. Don't take my word for it, Google it !

 

Thanks htone. Googled And also read that one does not need to count the calories in coconut oil as it is used as energy and not stored as fat. Jackpot!