Freedom challenge 2013 route access issues

[Ketoorskop]

A public right of way is just that, a public right of way.

A landowner does not have the right to offer exclusive access on a public right of way.

Die Leer is a public right of way and this right needs protection.

 

That said, I am the first to respect the privacy of landowners (and don't even get me started on littering..)

 

There is a perfectly sensible and mutually beneficial solution to this issue. It involves respecting rights.

For some reason you are still promoting the idea that the road across Boplaas and Kleinberg to the Ladder was used as some sort of "freeway" to the outside world!

In fact, like any other farms in the world, this particular route was used by the inhabitants of the particular farm and maybe anyone happening to visit them (by invitation no doubt), but for the rest of the valley and the ouside world it was most certainly not the main route of travel in and out of the valley.

 

And I quote:

"They would negotiate the Gamkaskloof River, and move up the defile (for approx. 7 miles) bisecting the valley with their laden donkeys."

AND:

"As far as Gamkaskloof is concemed, the former inhabitants or living museum 'pieces' have now all left, and this is probably for the good. They were always very wary of outsiders and of being exhibits. They were a private people who mostly shied away from visitors who entered the valley, many out of curiosity. "

- T. Goetze, "Re-creation, tourism and historical presentation: the cases of Georgetown, Colorado (USA), and Gamkaskloof, Western Cape (South Africa) considered" in New Contree 42, November 1997, pp. 181-193

 

SO, if there was any so-called servitude use of the road and even the Ladder, it would most definitely have been of a personal nature (between locals or authorised people), and personal servitudes expire.

 

I don't know where you get this idea of a "public right of way" as it does not exist.

You are right about one thing though: "respecting rights", so respect ours!

[johannrissik]

For some reason you are still promoting the idea that the road across Boplaas and Kleinberg to the Ladder was used as some sort of "freeway" to the outside world!

In fact, like any other farms in the world, this particular route was used by the inhabitants of the particular farm and maybe anyone happening to visit them (by invitation no doubt), but for the rest of the valley and the ouside world it was most certainly not the main route of travel in and out of the valley.

 

And I quote:

"They would negotiate the Gamkaskloof River, and move up the defile (for approx. 7 miles) bisecting the valley with their laden donkeys."

AND:

"As far as Gamkaskloof is concemed, the former inhabitants or living museum 'pieces' have now all left, and this is probably for the good. They were always very wary of outsiders and of being exhibits. They were a private people who mostly shied away from visitors who entered the valley, many out of curiosity. "

- T. Goetze, "Re-creation, tourism and historical presentation: the cases of Georgetown, Colorado (USA), and Gamkaskloof, Western Cape (South Africa) considered" in New Contree 42, November 1997, pp. 181-193

 

SO, if there was any so-called servitude use of the road and even the Ladder, it would most definitely have been of a personal nature (between locals or authorised people), and personal servitudes expire.

 

I don't know where you get this idea of a "public right of way" as it does not exist.

You are right about one thing though: "respecting rights", so respect ours!

 

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the right of way was somehow limited to the farmers living in the kloof and their visitors. I am not sure where that puts the bushmen who were there before the farmers arrived and whose presence is recorded in the rock paintings located on your property, but that is a side issue.

 

Based on what you say, am I correct then in assuming that in your version it means that members of the Mostert/Joubert/Cordier families who have lived in the kloof for a number of generations enjoyed the right of way? Given that they still live there, do they continue to do so?

 

Am I also correct in assuming that it is extended to their visitors and guests and continues to do so?

 

Or did you issue them with their own key to the locked gate and a magic method for getting past your unlawfully erected razor wire?

 

You demand that your rights are respected but refuse to recognise the rights of the public, or, for that matter, the rights of your neighbours who have lived in the kloof for many generations.

 

As an aside, I would like to take this opportunity to alert you to the danger posed to wildlife by casually strewn razor wire. Animals can become entangled in it, and then die an agonising death as their tendons are slashed by the razor wire. ( It is not the same as a razor wire on a properly constructed fence.)

[Moriarty]

I have been following this back and forth argument with some interest. I would like to offer a possible solution. It seems to me that the fundamental issue of "right of way" is a purely legal issue which needs to be resolved in a court of law and it is basically a waste of time debating and arguing over it on this site. Until the legal case is settled, would it not be better to call a truce and simply request permission for freedom challenge and other cyclists to pass through. From what I have seen the owners of the properties are most willing to grant this.

 

When the case is decided, all parties must then simply stick to the law.

[Ketoorskop]

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the right of way was somehow limited to the farmers living in the kloof and their visitors. I am not sure where that puts the bushmen who were there before the farmers arrived and whose presence is recorded in the rock paintings located on your property, but that is a side issue.

 

Based on what you say, am I correct then in assuming that in your version it means that members of the Mostert/Joubert/Cordier families who have lived in the kloof for a number of generations enjoyed the right of way? Given that they still live there, do they continue to do so?

 

Am I also correct in assuming that it is extended to their visitors and guests and continues to do so?

 

Or did you issue them with their own key to the locked gate and a magic method for getting past your unlawfully erected razor wire?

 

You demand that your rights are respected but refuse to recognise the rights of the public, or, for that matter, the rights of your neighbours who have lived in the kloof for many generations.

 

As an aside, I would like to take this opportunity to alert you to the danger posed to wildlife by casually strewn razor wire. Animals can become entangled in it, and then die an agonising death as their tendons are slashed by the razor wire. ( It is not the same as a razor wire on a properly constructed fence.)

Seriously? You are clutching at straws now.

Anyway, you have an opinion, I have an opinion and this could just carry on in circles forever.

So I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there is resolution down the line.

[johannrissik]

Seriously? You are clutching at straws now.

Anyway, you have an opinion, I have an opinion and this could just carry on in circles forever.

So I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there is resolution down the line.

 

 

Maybe you'd like to address some of the issues I have raised?

 

I would like to suggest that youconsider removing the razor wire which you had strewn in the bush at the northern end of your electrified fence. It poses a potentially serious threat to wildlife (kudu, leopard, duiker etc) as the fence channels these animals towards the razor wire.

[Shebeen]

Seriously? You are clutching at straws now.

Anyway, you have an opinion, I have an opinion and this could just carry on in circles forever.

So I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there is resolution down the line.

 

I'm not sure who's really clutching at straws here. What's the point of randomly selecting from the various written sources focusing on the valley?

 

I found a link to the one you referenced, it's an interesting read.

http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/6338

 

And I quote:

”A couple of doctors from Tygerberg Hospital in Cape Town bought a farm, probably to escape the stresses of the twentieth century”

 

You guys i guess, but what does that mean? Not much, because this is a pretty silly place to be debating this. The correct procedure is to go from

a disagreement=>internet forum=>legal consultation.

 

Since we skipped straight to step three, the internet becomes little more than a PR tool. Making iffy statements from the literature is not very exciting these days. How about putting up some of the video evidence from the 'Battle' and we can decide who to support with our likes, LOLcats and retweets? I heard the term 'citizens arrest' made it all the way from Hollywood to gamkaskloof, sounds like something worth watching if it's on the video.

[Ketoorskop]

Maybe you'd like to address some of the issues I have raised?

 

I would like to suggest that youconsider removing the razor wire which you had strewn in the bush at the northern end of your electrified fence. It poses a potentially serious threat to wildlife (kudu, leopard, duiker etc) as the fence channels these animals towards the razor wire.

Never you mind that. Has/is being dealt with (not that it's any of your business). Was only a temporary deterrent anyway.

[Kranswurm]

Never you mind that. Has/is being dealt with (not that it's any of your business). Was only a temporary deterrent anyway.

 

You really are a nasty piece of work.

I doubt you are endearing yourself to any of the supporters of the FC.In fact your marketing and communication skills suck

[johannrissik]

Never you mind that. Has/is being dealt with (not that it's any of your business). Was only a temporary deterrent anyway.

 

Ag Ketoors...

 

I had merely felt it necessary to point out a potential hazard to wildlife, but thank you for acting on my request anyway.

 

Why on earth would you place razor wire on a public path? What were you trying to deterr?

[johannrissik]

As I understand it, no one has sought permission in the past.

 

I have personally in the past been up Die Leer without asking permission. So have many mountain bikers, hikers and even horse riders.

 

Farmers living in the Vleiland area have used Die Leer in the past and continue to use it. Then you as landowners start insisting on permission from the Freedom Challenge (and in the case of the landowner at the top, payment).

 

When you were told that permission would not be sought as a public right of way you initially threatened legal action but then decided to take the law into your own hands, erecting razor wire and "arresting" people passing through.

 

It seems to me that you rely on the law and what is right only when it suits you. For the rest, it's perhaps still a little lawless in the Gamkaskloof.

[Ketoorskop]

You really are a nasty piece of work.

I doubt you are endearing yourself to any of the supporters of the FC.In fact your marketing and communication skills suck

Sorry to hear you feel that way. If you have followed this thread properly you will have notice that I have been quite courteous in my exchanges and degrading to name-calling is a sign of the attitude of some of you who comment. It shows a total lack of common decency.

Besides, I don't see this a marketing/PR exercise as I said before that I came into the forum only to let the other side of the story be told...

[Ketoorskop]

As I understand it, no one has sought permission in the past.

 

I have personally in the past been up Die Leer without asking permission. So have many mountain bikers, hikers and even horse riders.

 

Farmers living in the Vleiland area have used Die Leer in the past and continue to use it. Then you as landowners start insisting on permission from the Freedom Challenge (and in the case of the landowner at the top, payment).

 

When you were told that permission would not be sought as a public right of way you initially threatened legal action but then decided to take the law into your own hands, erecting razor wire and "arresting" people passing through.

 

It seems to me that you rely on the law and what is right only when it suits you. For the rest, it's perhaps still a little lawless in the Gamkaskloof.

You are misrepresenting the facts again. Just saying something does not make it so.

Likewise, you climbing the Ladder without permission merely means the owners were not aware of it, not that you had some sort of right. That's why since we became aware of the situation we have been objecting consistently.

All I'm saying is you think we have acted illegally and we think you have acted illegally and that's that.

An impasse I would say.

[Kranswurm]

Sorry to hear you feel that way. If you have followed this thread properly you will have notice that I have been quite courteous in my exchanges and degrading to name-calling is a sign of the attitude of some of you who comment. It shows a total lack of common decency.

Besides, I don't see this a marketing/PR exercise as I said before that I came into the forum only to let the other side of the story be told...

 

I have followed this thread from the very beginning with great interest as I know and love the area and I admire the whole concept of the Freedom Challenge

 

I was one of the first to jump to your defence re asking for permission etc etc

However,as the thread developed I began to understand the situation more clearly and found your arguments abtuse,obstructive,arrogant and at times quite dismissive.That is easily demonstrated by your response quoted below

 

Never you mind that. Has/is being dealt with (not that it's any of your business). Was only a temporary deterrent anyway.

[johannrissik]

You are misrepresenting the facts again. Just saying something does not make it so.

Likewise, you climbing the Ladder without permission merely means the owners were not aware of it, not that you had some sort of right. That's why since we became aware of the situation we have been objecting consistently.

All I'm saying is you think we have acted illegally and we think you have acted illegally and that's that.

An impasse I would say.

 

Please explain which facts you think I am "misrepresenting". It doesn't help to simply make sweeping allegations, please be specific.

 

It might interest you to know that I met one of the landowners on one of my trips up Die Leer, a polite and friendly man who made no mention of any access issues.

 

It would be helpful if you could attempt to address some of my earlier questions.

[Ketoorskop]

Please explain which facts you think I am "misrepresenting". It doesn't help to simply make sweeping allegations, please be specific.

 

It might interest you to know that I met one of the landowners on one of my trips up Die Leer, a polite and friendly man who made no mention of any access issues.

 

It would be helpful if you could attempt to address some of my earlier questions.

I'm sorry Johann, but I find your approach to be exactly the same and I am sure that nothing I say is going to make any difference at this point.

If I can find the time I will put together a proper response to your statements/questions, but until then I fear that I will be wasting my time.

[johannrissik]

I'm sorry Johann, but I find your approach to be exactly the same and I am sure that nothing I say is going to make any difference at this point.

If I can find the time I will put together a proper response to your statements/questions, but until then I fear that I will be wasting my time.

 

I'm not rushing you, take your time, but I'd like some clear answers please.

 

You are not wasting your time, I really want to get to the bottom of this to find out what it is that you think I don't understand.