Fake / Counterfeit Bikes & Components: News and how to spot them

[Hennie VR]

Thanks Spyster.

 

We did cover the topic back when I was in university. Mayby I fell asleep.

Gee what a job you have. Is there like a central database where you go and search for patents to see if its been registered before or do you only find that out when someone files a civil suit against you?

[rouxtjie]

On condition that the frame design is not subject to a patent or a registered design or copyright (the latter two have different requirements to patents), yes.

 

Something else has also popped into my head though - when speaking of frame geo there are in some cases factors other than just the angles and lengths which have to be considered - for example, the way the stays cross over on the seat post on the new Pina's, or the way the carbon chain stays flex on a Scalpel. These "inventions" form part of the frame geo, but could be patentable inventions all by themselves.

 

Sorry rouxtjie - never expect a straight answer from a lawyer.

hahahaha, I get the pina stay crossover thing, same as a lefty, very unique to that brand and would be a blatant copy...its quite tricky since I don't think the manufactures patent these design angles....they really should

[spyster]

http://patentsearch.cipc.co.za/patents/patentsearch.aspx

 

This is the link for the basic public patent search facility offered by the registry. Most firms of patent attorneys have their own people at the registry who do the searches. The searches can be tricky, so try and get advice before you import and sell a potentially infringing product - it will cost you less in the long run.

[spyster]

oh, and bear in mind that the above link only covers patents filed in SA! Patent registrations are country specific (as are trade mark and registered design registrations).

[Brett]

Some wheelsets are really badly made and can see straight away that its fake.

 

Ive seen so many carbon frames all look the same with different names on. Apparently these are all copies of Spez frames?

[Eugene]

Some wheelsets are really badly made and can see straight away that its fake.

 

Ive seen so many carbon frames all look the same with different names on. Apparently these are all copies of Spez frames?

Ja.....there was a guy selling a bike called a Mito. He claimed the frame cost him R25 000. You could see, the frame was nothing more than a copy of a Specialized Venge.

 

R25 000? yeah right.

[Wyatt Earp]

I know, I know...

 

but there was a point to it...

 

and that is simlar to your intention. Many unsuspecting hubbers purchase items from other hubbers under the impression that they are getting an original GT40, when they're actually just getting a kit car.

 

One hubber PM'd me asking me why his Boxxer WC fork wasn't holding air (another hubber sold it to him as a "WC"), when in fact it was gutted and was running coil.

 

One can cringe when browsing the classifieds. People selling used items for more than the new price, and others not-in-the-know jumping at what they think is a bargain. Those I let slide cos it's not cool to sabotage someones sale. But to see item Y advertised as X... I think diplomatic reproach should be administered in such instances

 

I see now what you mean.

Yes sad to see stuff like that happening

[Wyatt Earp]

Ta thanks. So in other words the chinese are within their rights to take a frame and copy the geometry, and create blanks without owing the big brands a cent ito the R&D that went into making it work.

 

Yes, and that is exactly what they are doing.

When it comes to carbon you need to look at the type pf carbon being used and the manufacturing process, this is what you are paying the extra money for.

[Wyatt Earp]

Ja.....there was a guy selling a bike called a Mito. He claimed the frame cost him R25 000. You could see, the frame was nothing more than a copy of a Specialized Venge.

 

R25 000? yeah right.

 

The Venge has a long history in it, Specialized developed that bike in conjunction with another well known name.

They pretty much did most of the design in a wind tunnel.

It can easily be copied, but it can also easily be spotted as a Venge.

[rouxtjie]

Yes, and that is exactly what they are doing.

When it comes to carbon you need to look at the type pf carbon being used and the manufacturing process, this is what you are paying the extra money for.

Yea true, also the carbon construction(dont know if that is the right word) method like monocoque and lets face it...the local backup if something goes wrong, those all get added to the bill, and also why I don't think the chinese imports will take away any sales from the big brand names. The guys buying the chinese frames want something different to the guys wanting the brand frames, and its not just the logo on the tube.

[Wyatt Earp]

Yea true, also the carbon construction(dont know if that is the right word) method like monocoque and lets face it...the local backup if something goes wrong, those all get added to the bill, and also why I don't think the chinese imports will take away any sales from the big brand names. The guys buying the chinese frames want something different to the guys wanting the brand frames, and its not just the logo on the tube.

 

Not to come across as snobbish, but I will say this.

They are not buying Chinese because they want different, they are doing it because (a) they perceive it to be better value for money (same thing at a better price, in their minds) or (B) they simply don't have the funds.

If one really wanted something different, there is a plethora of options out there, albeit at big $$$$$

[Matt]

Wyatt Earp & Azonic

 

Please do not destroy this thread with your personal nitpicking. Who started what does not matter, but lay off the inciting posts and continuous jibes from both sides.

 

Once again... if you cannot get on use the ignore function.

[JGR]

Again, this is not about breakages but let's try and stay on topic, and before everyone hops on the pro-bikeshop owner bandwagon, there are a few things to consider.

Anything can break, fake, cheap or high ticket.

 

I have just returned from the Vespa store in Fourways, and they have some awesome 150 cc's there that my missus would love.

She has a 150 cc. Big Boy Retro.

It would be very foolish from me to say Vespa are crazy asking such a premium when the Big Boy also gets you where you want to be.

 

Basic economics needs to be applied here, she uses her scooter once a week on the weekend.

The difference however is that Big Boy don't try and copy Vespa.

With bicycles it's even more of a grey area.

 

A big company puts much R&D in to their bikes and the different tiers of models.

Some companies have road bikes for Pro, Recreational and Elderly riders.

That is three tiers already.

 

Now it's easy for any manufacturer that has the equipment and factory to "steal" the design and copy it and offer three tiers with a few minor changes.

A few differences however enters the fray when company A uses a different carbon and carbon layout compared to the copy company B.

 

No issue with that whatever as I myself by acknowledgment with my wives scooter is after the value for money (saying that, if she used it day in and day out, she would have the Vespa)

Where it becomes an issue is when the exact bike is being copied and being manufactured at a lower standard with inferior materials, and then gets branded as the bike that company A manufactures and sells.

 

It's not just fraud and theft , but also a potential liability issue in the future.

Also, everyone preaching "stringent testing" need to understand that the board of standards testing said item varies much from country to country.

 

Specialized themselves became talk of town when everyone claimed that they sold a helmet that didn't pass all the standards ,in the meanwhile the straps did not pass the U.S. standards yet the European board of standards accepted it, the helmet was sold in Europe and Africa with no issue.

 

In the end of the day I say.

Viva chinese product if that floats your boat and I say viva brand name if that floats your boat, but to go and buy fakes to (a) Stroke ones own ego and ( B) support illegal operations is just wrong.

 

Saying all that, the intention of the thread is more in the line of trying to make hubbers aware of what to look out for when spending money on high ticket items.

True but was just responding

 

I think there is a big difference compared to your example where Vespa make all (most) of their own components which vary a great deal from Big Boy.

 

Branded and unbranded use the same 'parts' with only the frame being the difference in cases. I have much love for both tbh and each has its place in the garage. I have a Felt F75 and B2Pro (origionals) and have recently acquired a carbon mtb frame and both are great but I am in total agreement about defrauding someone and would also like to learn and know more but how to spot fakes

[Wyatt Earp]

Wyatt Earp & Azonic

 

Please do not destroy this thread with your personal nitpicking. Who started what does not matter, but lay off the inciting posts and continuous jibes from both sides.

 

Once again... if you cannot get on use the ignore function.

 

Do you really expect the rest of us to sit around and suck up the rubbish that gets typed around geometries.

When a post or a person like that gets corrected, it's in the interest of everyone to show them the error of their ways.

There is enough bad advice on this forum already, whether you like it or not.

[fandacious]

Do you really expect the rest of us to sit around and suck up the rubbish that gets typed around geometries.

When a post or a person like that gets corrected, it's in the interest of everyone to show them the error of their ways.

There is enough bad advice on this forum already, whether you like it or not.

 

to be fair, you didnt correct him. you jsut told him he doesnt know what he's talking about, but you didnt show him what was wrong

[Wyatt Earp]

to be fair, you didnt correct him. you jsut told him he doesnt know what he's talking about, but you didnt show him what was wrong

 

You are being fair.

But why correct someone who simply only understands that a head angle has a certain degree forgetting the fact that BB height, chain stay length, top tube length, seat tube angle all have an effect on the feel of the bike.