Declassify signal hill trails: allow MTBers back!

[Capricorn]

Hi Rob

 

What would it take to open up the paths along signal hill to MTBers. I dont know when the signs were installed, but today I saw them.

 

What's the story? why can't two path user groups coexist? I've used it often prior to the signs going up, and i personally apply the rule that pedestrians have right of way. There's plenty of trail left to go bedonnered.

 

So, what would it take to get multi-user status?

[(Deon)]

oh no... I can only offer info from my side being on the TMMTB forum but none specific about the no-go status of late.

 

2014 is going to be the year of talks, 2013 was mainly about preparation and keeping head above water (Tokai), but now that the forum is in place and the EMP prepared, now we start talking about access. It will mean more public meetings this time discussing the issues on everyone's minds, trails. It will also mean speaking to the other users who for so long have enjoyed *exclusivity* and don't really want to share. I know this is a general statement but it considers that those opposing will be the voices we will hear above everyone else, even if the good folk who will happily let us pass outnumber those on "the dark side". It will be worth our effort to continue to present good behaviour to encourage the good guys to back our cause, they are out there, they just need a reason to be heard.

 

..and this brings me to a point you have made. While you are an exemplary mountain biker showing courtesy to aid our cause, your example is often not a shared sentiment in others. The type of people we don't want to represent us are those who do not show care or consideration of others, they have the potential to hurt the cause and turn allies into enemies.

 

Truth is, two users can co-exist and soon they will in places, but not without a fuss sadly..

 

Rob may be able to shed light on the signs.. he'll be on twitter, attract is attention with this link.

[Flowta]

 

So, when is the next forum meeting?

[tubed]

Hi

 

more talks about talks....... eish

 

any chance there is a link to the proposed EMP?

 

well done to you guys for persevering with this

[Capricorn]

I hear you PoS, and i imagined that was the case, ie the hooligans on two wheels/snobs on two legs will overrule logic concerning a limited resource, ie the trails on signal hill.

 

But I will admit, there is no simply answer to enforcing simple courtesy and due consideration for trail users. It's not different from very organised infracstructure such as roads with stop signs, road markings galore all backed by a thick wad of paper called rules of the road and associated laws + law enforcers.

 

But the fact is, transgressors on the roads dont result in lack of roads. Thus the few hooligans shouldn't dictate for the masses. I'm not being pseudo philosophical: I actually believe it.

 

This is a game of inches: behaviourisms conducive to responsible usage dont come overnight, but we have to start somewhere, and deal with incidents as and when they occur without overreacting by banning one group or the other. Consistency of application of whatever rulebook is what matters more in these cases.

 

Better still, give MTBers more trails on Signal Hill, and we'll gladly share with the bipeds

Edited December 27, 2013 by Capricorn

[Guest Omega Man]

I hear you PoS, and i imagined that was the case, ie the hooligans on two wheels/snobs on two legs will overrule logic concerning a limited resource, ie the trails on signal hill.

 

But I will admit, there is no simply answer to enforcing simple courtesy and due consideration for trail users. It's not different from very organised infracstructure such as roads with stop signs, road markings galore all backed by a thick wad of paper called rules of the road and associated laws + law enforcers.

 

But the fact is, transgressors on the roads dont result in lack of roads. Thus the few hooligans shouldn't dictate for the masses. I'm not being pseudo philosophical: I actually believe it.

 

This is a game of inches: behaviourisms conducive to responsible usage dont come overnight, but we have to start somewhere, and deal with incidents as and when they occur without overreacting by banning one group or the other. Consistency of application of whatever rulebook is what matters more in these cases.

 

Better still, give MTBers more trails on Signal Hill, and we'll gladly share with the bipeds

Maya for Mayor!

 

I 100% agree with your comments.

 

Mountain bikers and walkers have been sharing trails in Switzerland since the advent of the mountain bike. It just takes a little mutual respect.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Omega Man

[Stevief]

Just got back from my usual normal ride around signal hill and table mtn. I also saw the signs R500 for MTB on the trails. Ive been riding these trails for 12 years now and encounter all sorts on the mtn. I cannot understand how certain people can use it and certain people cannot. I run/walk my dogs and ride my bike on the trails its very sad that these bueracratic rules can be enforced to prosecute people enjoying the outdoors, whilst criminals still roam these same trails and are not dealt with in any way. If anything MTBers actually keep the Mtn safer for the other folk.

[Capricorn]

Just got back from my usual normal ride around signal hill and table mtn. I also saw the signs R500 for MTB on the trails. Ive been riding these trails for 12 years now and encounter all sorts on the mtn. I cannot understand how certain people can use it and certain people cannot. I run/walk my dogs and ride my bike on the trails its very sad that these bueracratic rules can be enforced to prosecute people enjoying the outdoors, whilst criminals still roam these same trails and are not dealt with in any way. If anything MTBers actually keep the Mtn safer for the other folk.

 

I'm with you on the safety in numbers aspect. It would actually make the rangers job easier having so many two wheeled and biped 'spotters' on the mountain. But instead, no: they prefer offering a diluted 'protective' service, and then we wonder why tourists get maimed or raped. Fantastic.

[stringbean]

Those signs of R500 fine have been around for 20 years.Sometimes they are gone for a while and then new ones are put in place but the fact remains that certain areas of signal hill and table mountain are illegal.We mtbikers love to throw words around like 'co exist,share etc' but fact remains when there is a trail that is nice ,even if it's illegal to hell with all rules and laws we going to ride it.You only have to look at how many strava points have been created on the illegal side of signal hill to see how many mtbikers are in fact breaking the law.Almost every time I go to the blockhouse I see a group of riders riding the single track above the blockhouse and tafelberg rd.Mountain bikers have unfortunately become the same as the roadie mentality.Quick to play the victim,but hard for us to follow the rules and laws.

[(Deon)]

Areas on the mountain has been zoned for certain use. It has been this way for a very long time and until recently, there was never any demand for the status to change. Unfortunately, and the way it works with TMNP as it involves a change in many departments with many different users, is that a request to change the zoning is a long and deliberate course which many people don't have the patience to see through.

 

We are doing it now, and yes we are the ones being critisied for the time it takes but it will be best in the long run if the few people working towards the change (ed: and those supporting it), ignores the critcs and gets on with the process. The requirements are very clear but it seems we choose to understand what we want.

 

2013 has proved near impossible to get splinter groups of riders to understand the timeframe to achieve the goal. Just look at the response from the Cecelia night ride group who are still claiming historical rights to continue despite the warnings and even injuries, the very reason for the ban on night riding on the back of the mountain. We are dealing with some very adamant people who, as few as they are, choose rather not to follow due process but instead flout rules in the hope it gets them what they want - activism. Truth is they are ignoring the needs of a larger population towing the line and supporting the upswell of requests that TMNP cannot, and will not ignore but only if we meet the requirements to initiate the talks.. EMP's, forums, constitutions, meetings. etc.

 

"Talks about talks".. call it what you want, talks are needed if we hope to change the zoning status of the last 60+ years.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Pain or shine

[Capricorn]

Those signs of R500 fine have been around for 20 years.Sometimes they are gone for a while and then new ones are put in place but the fact remains that certain areas of signal hill and table mountain are illegal.We mtbikers love to throw words around like 'co exist,share etc' but fact remains when there is a trail that is nice ,even if it's illegal to hell with all rules and laws we going to ride it.You only have to look at how many strava points have been created on the illegal side of signal hill to see how many mtbikers are in fact breaking the law.Almost every time I go to the blockhouse I see a group of riders riding the single track above the blockhouse and tafelberg rd.Mountain bikers have unfortunately become the same as the roadie mentality.Quick to play the victim,but hard for us to follow the rules and laws.

 

The law is antiquated and serves only a small minority of hill users. Cycling is growing and a little foresight will go a long way to ensuring fair usage by all users. Not stay stuck in a period 20 years or more ago. That mentality needs to change.

 

 

PoS: I appreciate the difficulties in changing the mindset at the official/lawmaking level. It's a game of inches from both perspectives: rider attitudes and attitudes of the powers-that-be. But consider my name added (again) to the list of those wanting change.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Capricorn

[Butterbean]

Those signs of R500 fine have been around for 20 years.Sometimes they are gone for a while and then new ones are put in place but the fact remains that certain areas of signal hill and table mountain are illegal.We mtbikers love to throw words around like 'co exist,share etc' but fact remains when there is a trail that is nice ,even if it's illegal to hell with all rules and laws we going to ride it.You only have to look at how many strava points have been created on the illegal side of signal hill to see how many mtbikers are in fact breaking the law.Almost every time I go to the blockhouse I see a group of riders riding the single track above the blockhouse and tafelberg rd.Mountain bikers have unfortunately become the same as the roadie mentality.Quick to play the victim,but hard for us to follow the rules and laws.

 

I don't live in Cape Town, so perhaps gave little effect on this topic, but this is perfectly described.

 

Unfortunately, the majority always seems to pay for the actions of a few. And I'm sure we can all run out of fingers and toes when counting the transgressions we have seen performed by cyclists.

 

It seems that until you start putting licence plates on bikes, you can almost never hold a douche bag accountable for their stupid actions. And they will continue, that you can guarantee!

 

Good luck at getting on the mountain, but personally, if I had to choose who to give way to on a trail shared, it would be walkers. Less likely to litter, far less damage to the trail, and just so much less to go wrong, really.

 

OP, think about this as if you had to make the decision. Which way would it go if you were completely rational and were a spectator instead of a participant? You would also get the bikers off the trails. Coexisting won't be guaranteed, so it just won't happen at all.

 

 

[Capricorn]

I don't live in Cape Town, so perhaps gave little effect on this topic, but this is perfectly described.

 

Unfortunately, the majority always seems to pay for the actions of a few. And I'm sure we can all run out of fingers and toes when counting the transgressions we have seen performed by cyclists.

 

It seems that until you start putting licence plates on bikes, you can almost never hold a douche bag accountable for their stupid actions. And they will continue, that you can guarantee!

 

Good luck at getting on the mountain, but personally, if I had to choose who to give way to on a trail shared, it would be walkers. Less likely to litter, far less damage to the trail, and just so much less to go wrong, really.

 

OP, think about this as if you had to make the decision. Which way would it go if you were completely rational and were a spectator instead of a participant? You would also get the bikers off the trails. Coexisting won't be guaranteed, so it just won't happen at all.

 

your 1st mistake was insinuating accusing me of being irrational. Weak sauce starting a debate on that negative footing. Secondly, you changed the game by demanding an answer from a perspective that does not apply. My approach is clear, and i can only argue from that one. That said, i use the mountain to run on as well, something you've failed to query.

Thirdly, how can a non-user have a sway vote? Or are you insinuating that only spectactors will have The Rational perspective to offer? What is a spectator in this regard?

So much for synergy and community. always drawing rings around groups.

 

So maybe restructure your argument and we can have an actual rational discussion.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Capricorn

[(Deon)]

Hi

 

more talks about talks....... eish

 

any chance there is a link to the proposed EMP?

 

well done to you guys for persevering with this

Shot dot.. thanks for understanding.

 

The draft EMP was sent to TMNP for comment a while back. We will start engaging in discussion with all affected parties/stakeholders in the new year.

 

The new year will also see a closer working relationship with TMNP as we have - it would seem - earned respect/trust of some of the managers, prompting them to want to work closer. WIN!

 

MTB has put a lot of money into the mountain so far and as many have said, the potential is there for more benefit to TMNP. Volunteering has been a system in place giving back to the park since early 1900's, mainly by the biped group but with more riders getting involved, the tables have swung a bit.. trail running and MTB being the biggest contributors. Cap Mayhem and I have spent a lot of time focussing on getting the MTB contributions recognised by the park, but ultimately it's the time individuals are giving to track repairs and maintenance, as well as donations, that is winning the value fight..

Rob through his involvement in the North has brought the North into discussions with the South which was a major area lacking public involvement. This means that with the support of the North as well as the South, we can focus on one goal. This is vital for success!

 

So, no link to the EMP as yet, but there are many facets we can still focus on until the doc is ready for viewing. Public meetings will be announced and heck, we need as many people to attend as possible!

[Butterbean]

 

 

your 1st mistake was insinuating accusing me of being irrational. Weak sauce starting a debate on that negative footing. Secondly, you changed the game by demanding an answer from a perspective that does not apply. My approach is clear, and i can only argue from that one. That said, i use the mountain to run on as well, something you've failed to query.

Thirdly, how can a non-user have a sway vote? Or are you insinuating that only spectactors will have The Rational perspective to offer? What is a spectator in this regard?

So much for synergy and community. always drawing rings around groups.

 

So maybe restructure your argument and we can have an actual rational discussion.

 

I'm not going to get into a debate over this... All I offered was some more perspective on your demands. You unfortunately will have to think from more than one perspective when asking for a decision to be made that involves more people than you.

 

This reply shows a lot about your attitude towards the debate Sir... Frankly, it just sounds childish. And I'm so happy for you that you get to run on the mountain too... What does that matter? Dude, relax. You need to realise that you're not the only user on the mountain and that you can't have everything you want. Again, it sucks! I agree with that completely. But the actions of others have prevented you from enjoying something... It happens to all of us. Hence it is our responsibility to ensure we correct others appropriately and in a timely fashion to change behaviour.

 

Lastly, "spectator" refers to those most likely to be making the decision that you are asking to be made... They'll probably have nothing to do with hiking or cycling, but they hold the power to decide. Hence their perspective being an important one from which to think.

 

Good luck getting on those trails . Hope you get what you want and that more people get to enjoy our sport on our interactive monument that is table mountain.

 

Edit: correcting auto correct.

Edited December 28, 2013 by AfdElite

[Capricorn]

I'm not going to get into a debate over this... All I offered was some more perspective on your demands. You unfortunately will have to think from more than one perspective when asking for a decision to be made that involves more people than you.

 

This reply shows a lot about your attitude towards the debate Sir... Frankly, it just sounds childish. And I'm so happy for you that you get to run on the mountain too... What does that matter? Dude, relax. You need to realise that you're not the only user on the mountain and that you can't have everything you want. Again, it sucks! I agree with that completely. But the actions of others have prevented you from enjoying something... It happens to all of us. Hence it is our responsibility to ensure we correct others appropriately and in a timely fashion to change behaviour.

 

Lastly, "spectator" refers to those most likely to be making the decision that you are asking to be made... They'll probably have nothing to do with hiking or cycling, but they hold the power to decide. Hence their perspective being an important one from which to think.

 

Good luck getting on those trails . Hope you get what you want and that more people get to enjoy our sport on our interactive monument that is table mountain.

 

Edit: correcting auto correct.

 

wow, talk about childish.Your approach is passive aggressive and just rubbish. So until you grow up, i'm going to ignore it.

 

My ;'demands', as you've so antagonistically phrased it, thread title aside, is simple: what would it take to open the paths to multi-modal users. it's the last sentence of the first post, and it's a simple, singular request for a different perspective. Perhaps you didn't bother to read with understanding or willfully ignored it, but my question fully encompasses all possible perspectives.

 

So for your singular education, I have to quote the important bit:

So, what would it take to get multi-user status?

 

Go focus on that instead while u grow up abit.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Capricorn