RockCoach Posted April 23, 2014 Share Bat outta hell racing... Now you are confusing XCO with the Karkloof Enduro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted April 23, 2014 Share Subsequent to checking the results of the last two XCO events on National level this whole debate seems like a storm in a teacup. Hardly anyone signs up for these events! My advice to Nigel is to keep doing what he is doing - get the young involved and grew it from there. Insofar Naas - I remember him opening the great skilled/unskilled debate and his skills workshop plans some time back on the hub. My perception then, and seems to be confirmed by his latest rant, is his desire is really to make his superior skills known than anything else. And to Goya-Goya: which banana peel did you arrive on? bing bing bing...we have a winner...because no one cares about it...but actually it is an incredible spectacle to watch - somehow we need to shift this....why will people go out to support marathon events when they can watch a xc event is beyond me....that is why the spur series is so good...at least the parents are there to support the kids..... Captain Fastbastard Mayhem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelhicks Posted April 23, 2014 Share that is why the spur series is so good...at least the parents are there to support the kids..... Or scream at them when they not doing well! - remember one XCO race the one little girl came over the line in tears and was just getting an ear bashing from dad ... I was like WTF! ... am I at a Motocross race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rata Del Spruit Posted April 23, 2014 Share Or scream at them when they not doing well! - remember one XCO race the one little girl came over the line in tears and was just getting an ear bashing from dad ... I was like WTF! ... am I at a Motocross race? …or BMX event. Geez, the parents there know a thing or two about laying the pressure on their kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolipoli Posted April 23, 2014 Share Firstly let me just argue with Nolipoli quickly .... I disagree - especially at a Provincial level - this is your base for new riders to progress so the time penalties need to be just great enough to penalise a rider to the point that they loose a bit but do not feel the absolute need to take the A-line to save time - If this is the case then you fall into a situation like at Masters Worlds XC last year when okes were ending themselves over something that was reserved for proper skilled riders - also it needs to be said that this is also a South African rider EGO issue - and we ALL need to stop thinking we are better than we are and know our limits - but the crux is ......... a B - or C line at Provincial or even National should not put you out of contention for a podium! (a win maybe - but a podium .. NO) CheersNige Nigel, I wish I could concede, but I I can't... In any sport, the provincial competitive arena already picks the top sportsmen (and women) in that province to take part in the competition, and anyone that is going to podium at one of these events needs to be the best of the best. Have a look at provincial rugby, for argument's sake. No player in there is very fit and fast, but has average ball handling skills. No player tackles like a bulldozer, but can't run 100m. They all have everything. A top ten is nothing to be sneezed at, and this should be achievable on the B and possibly C lines. A podium, however, should be reserved for the guys that are both capable and prepared to push that much harder on the climbs and the tech stuff. This includes taking the plunge down A-lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanniri Posted April 23, 2014 Share bing bing bing...we have a winner...because no one cares about it...but actually it is an incredible spectacle to watch - somehow we need to shift this....why will people go out to support marathon events when they can watch a xc event is beyond me....that is why the spur series is so good...at least the parents are there to support the kids..... My guess is they support it since they are able to participate. XCO is seen as over technical and over hard. The same applies to criteruim racing vs. PPA social rides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted April 23, 2014 Share Nigel, I wish I could concede, but I I can't... In any sport, the provincial competitive arena already picks the top sportsmen (and women) in that province to take part in the competition, and anyone that is going to podium at one of these events needs to be the best of the best. Have a look at provincial rugby, for argument's sake. No player in there is very fit and fast, but has average ball handling skills. No player tackles like a bulldozer, but can't run 100m. They all have everything. A top ten is nothing to be sneezed at, and this should be achievable on the B and possibly C lines. A podium, however, should be reserved for the guys that are both capable and prepared to push that much harder on the climbs and the tech stuff. This includes taking the plunge down A-lines. If all riders were equal, then yes - this would have to be the case. But as riders are inherently different, you'll always get someone who is better on the hills, or on the tech, or average on both. If you're someone who is a machine on the flats and non tech sections, yet your closest competitor is 30 seconds slower up a hill than you and you take the b lines 'cos you're not as technically proficient as him, then why shouldn't you podium? A lot of this is subjective - and has a lot to do with who is riding on the day. At the end of it - if no "complete packages" are riding, then the oke who is technically proficient but not the fittest should come in at the same time who is the fittest yet not technically proficient. However - you're right. The complete package - someone that is like Absolon on the tech, but Froome on everything else - should win. But if someone was just a bit faster than you on the flat stuff, and that advantage took him to podium in front of you - who may have been better on the tech than him, but not quite as fast on the non tech - then why deny him the opportunity to podium or win, when he was in reality the more complete package? In racing, you have to be at the top of your game. Seconds are everything. But if you're slower than someone on the flats or tech section, and claim that the reason you didn't win is that the course is either too tech or not tech enough, then you need to have a look at yourself and train harder, because you're only lying to yourself. If a racer can stay with you even though he's doing the B lines, then you need to work on your fitness and he needs to work on his tech skills. End of. If he works harder on his tech skills than you do on your fitness, or if he works on his fitness so much that your gains in fitness are dwarfed by his, then why deny him the opportunity to place first? At the end of the day, it comes down to this - you come second of third or last 'cos you were not the best on the day. Regardless of the track's techincality or lack thereof. And you need to train harder to overcome that. Skubarra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted April 23, 2014 Share agreed with armpies - the steep lung busting stuff is actually the majority of the race - and the bit that takes the longest. If you were climbing a hill consistently faster than a more technical guy then the few seconds of technical is not going to be enough to counteract the overall advantage of the other Captain Fastbastard Mayhem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naas Vermaak Posted April 23, 2014 Share Subsequent to checking the results of the last two XCO events on National level this whole debate seems like a storm in a teacup. Hardly anyone signs up for these events! My advice to Nigel is to keep doing what he is doing - get the young involved and grew it from there. Insofar Naas - I remember him opening the great skilled/unskilled debate and his skills workshop plans some time back on the hub. My perception then, and seems to be confirmed by his latest rant, is his desire is really to make his superior skills known than anything else. And to Goya-Goya: which banana peel did you arrive on? Thank you to everyone for their 2 c's, some better than others but nevertheless a very healthy and constructive thread from most. I have forwarded the link to the WC MTB XCO for interest sake and sincerely hope that this debate will aid XCO evnts and building tracks etc all across the board. Myself, I only started with serious MTB 3 years ago(is 54 now) and has more scars to show from this than 12 years of serious ROADIE-life. I am certainly not superiour as far as skills are concerned as some would suggest but definately has the passion to become a much better MTB-er. Please contribute some more to the thread, if you wish and thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted April 23, 2014 Share Thank you to everyone for their 2 c's, some better than others but nevertheless a very healthy and constructive thread from most. I have forwarded the link to the WC MTB XCO for interest sake and sincerely hope that this debate will aid XCO evnts and building tracks etc all across the board. Myself, I only started with serious MTB 3 years ago(is 54 now) and has more scars to show from this than 12 years of serious ROADIE-life. I am certainly not superiour as far as skills are concerned as some would suggest but definately has the passion to become a much better MTB-er. Please contribute some more to the thread, if you wish and thank you. ive been at this since the early 90's and my balls have gotten smaller and smaller each year to the point that i generally take the b line or the c line if its offered.......but then those are kzn b lines...not those woosie a lines you guys have in the w cape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyTrailRider Posted April 23, 2014 Share ive been at this since the early 90's and my balls have gotten smaller and smaller each year to the point that i generally take the b line or the c line if its offered....... Weirdly, it's been exactly the same for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goya-goya Posted April 23, 2014 Share Haha.... Don't let the fact that Cavendish -being as fat as he is - who hides behind everyone for 210.8 on of a 211km Race is a *** rider! Hey guys... I like to watch to best people perform... That is why I detest these mtb participation shows on super sport... For the same reason... This topic sounds all whiney... If you like to ride for fun... Cool! If you're good enough to race... Then you should be competing... And then you will suck it up and train smarter and get even better.. I mean seriously... Should we start restricting downhills because fat people have an advantage? Or uphills because skinny people have an advantage? My advice... Train to win no matter what the terrain... And if you don't win... But you could give no more... You should be proud! Don't spoil the effort by trying to rig the event... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lochner Posted April 23, 2014 Share ive been at this since the early 90's and my balls have gotten smaller and smaller each year to the point that i generally take the b line or the c line if its offered.......but then those are kzn b lines...not those woosie a lines you guys have in the w cape Hey Stretch dont diss our B lines we think we doing well Stretch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lochner Posted April 23, 2014 Share Off topic but does anyone no what the lines will look like at WP XCO at Paul Cluver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebel Posted April 24, 2014 Share Or scream at them when they not doing well! - remember one XCO race the one little girl came over the line in tears and was just getting an ear bashing from dad ... I was like WTF! ... am I at a Motocross race? Those Junior MX parents should be banned from the track.... Their behaviour is disgusting. Watching kids cry inside their goggles is surely not a good day out. As for the whole A, B, and C Lines in both DH and XCO, we have to be careful to not compare the WC XCO and any local (be it national of provincial) XCO (or DH for that matter) races. You are comparing apples and hot cross buns. The local/provincial XCO should be the tamest progressing up to the WC or Olympic type WCO courses and I believe that as you go up the ladder the line choices should be limited. At local level (On an XC course give three choices. At WC level, give two. For DH give two. I don't ride XCO so my input is limited but I have ridden DH and the 3 second penalty on each obstacle kinda puts you out of contention for a podium at the end of the day as you are never going to get that time back through the trees or on any straight section of the course. The truth of the matter is that if you want to stand on the step for either of the two (XCO or DH), you need both skill and fitness. That applies to all levels from local up to Olympic. As an aside, any provincial or national is open to all as far as I know so cater for the riders looking to test themselves against the "big guys". I am not going to hit the gaps or the drops but I still need to get down or around nolipoli and andregrobler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelhicks Posted April 24, 2014 Share Nigel, I wish I could concede, but I I can't... In any sport, the provincial competitive arena already picks the top sportsmen (and women) in that province to take part in the competition, and anyone that is going to podium at one of these events needs to be the best of the best. Have a look at provincial rugby, for argument's sake. No player in there is very fit and fast, but has average ball handling skills. No player tackles like a bulldozer, but can't run 100m. They all have everything. A top ten is nothing to be sneezed at, and this should be achievable on the B and possibly C lines. A podium, however, should be reserved for the guys that are both capable and prepared to push that much harder on the climbs and the tech stuff. This includes taking the plunge down A-lines. Ok i agree with you for the Elite and Junior ranks at Provincial level - but for the youngsters and ballies - we need those alternative lines to encourage new people into racing. So if you think about it as it stands - overall - everyone in the top 10 will be taking the A-line no matter what as it is faster .... but in Sub-vet - maybe 2 riders will take it as its too daunting for most of the guys so then your podium is made up of guys who take the b-lines - and in this instance to have close racing is better IMO ... So it also comes down to your age and category Danger Dassie and Grebel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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