NotSoBigBen Posted September 10, 2014 Share Yip, exactly....what the big brands don't realize is that you sign in blood when handing over your IP to the east. Sure you save bucks on labour....and in the short run the board will be happy...profits are up, costs are down. But then they have you by the short and curly's, your IP that you laid out big capital for, you hand over in the form of a mold. Just thinking how difficult is it to make a 'mold' from an existing frame? Surely if they want to copy a frame they just need to buy one and do it .... of praat ek nou akkas? eddy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted September 10, 2014 Share Just thinking how difficult is it to make a 'mold' from an existing frame? Surely if they want to copy a frame they just need to buy one and do it .... of praat ek nou akkas?No, for sure...a viable option. What I am referring to are basically a whole recipe....not just frame angles and tube lengths Things like carbon layup procedures...carbon types on different sections...QC procedures...when they get the "recipe". Long Wheel Base and NotSoBigBen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieterg Posted September 10, 2014 Share :whistling: How can one frame cost between R5000-R50 000 ??? Edited September 10, 2014 by Pieterg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon29er Posted September 10, 2014 Share Saw this add just now... I want to cry! You can not do this! http://johannesburg....s-iid-708951096 Am I wrong? While it is not something that is neither legal nor moral and should be pursued by the owners of the brand I am interested why it makes you want to cry? Is it because a guy might turn up on a trail or at a race and kick your arse on a bike that looks like yours but cost him less than half the price to be put together, thereby potentially showing you to be a brand slut and/or a poseur with more cash than dash? Interestingly the frame is the thing that carries the brand name but usually makes up about a third of the cost of a complete 29er, the rest of the stuff we never refer to when asked what we ride costs far more. Disclaimer: I make part of my living selling genuine non branded non fake frames and all the other stuff that makes a 29er either faster or lighter. Th3voic3 and Ispeed_V 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted September 10, 2014 Share Probably not that easy, but you do get 3D scanners and with the right software it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted September 10, 2014 Share :whistling: How can one frame cost between R5000-R50 000 ???R&D...sponserships...advertising....branding. China has none of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy Posted September 10, 2014 Share When the whole cycle science thing broke I did some research on the matter. ALIEXPRESS has a few brands for sale including pinarello, specialized, time, colnago and a few other high end brands. All ranging from $500 up. I dug deeper and with not too much googling I found out that what happens is a brand like pinarello employs 50(just a figure for argument sake) factories in china to make their frames. Pinarello supplies the mold and instruct them exactly what weave carbon to use. Pinarello will then say to each factory they must produce XXX amount of frames to be shipped back to Italy. Now this is where it gets dodgy. The "approved" factories firstly make duplicate molds and supply them to non approved factories. These non approved factories use any carbon they want but have the "proper" mold. Those frames are what get labelled as fake. Then the next thing the approved factory does is when pinarello says make XXX amount of frames they go and make XXX + a few. These extra frames are made with the correct carbon and same spec as the XXX amount going back to Italy. These frames are called grey imports. Its all wrong in so many ways but if there wasn't a demand they wouldn't do it? The scary thing is I looked on this ALIEXPRESS site and the things you can buy on there are crazy, literally ANYTHING you can think of. Im not sure in the long run its worth it as firstly I want to support my LBS, secondly I'm sure you got zero warranty, thirdly how do you insure a fake? and lastly doesn't it play on your mind?I'm pretty sure this guy selling these got them from ALIEXPRESS. This is very, very misinformed. I will point out some urban legends as examples. If you think that any factory with a supply contract for say Pina would threaten their livelihood by selling "over runs" out the back door in competition with Pina, you are mistaken. Why would Pina (who have all the power in the relationship) tolerate their brand being diminished in this way? Simply because it does not happen. Ever. Second, your definition of grey is flawed. A product is not grey because of its manufacturing status but is only grey in the destination country. It is made AND branded and sold by the rightful brand owner, but lands up in a destination country without going through the official importer there. It is NOT the production over run. Please don't sprout nonsense as "research". Ps. None of the above casts any aspersion on Chinese made blanks, just on how they happen to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace Posted September 10, 2014 Share I don't think there is anything wrong with this (other than having the name printed on it -- ethics). It is adding competition to the market and will inevitably drive down the hugely inflated prices!! Bikes are still a niche market and unfortunately all the big players are keeping their prices high. I have it on good authority that an alu frame could cost as little as 2k to roll,weld,and incl material..this same fram is painted and a pretty name applied and is sold for 14k.... what other industry is making that much profit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy Posted September 10, 2014 Share While it is not something that is neither legal nor moral and should be pursued by the owners of the brand I am interested why it makes you want to cry? Maybe because it is illegal and yet openly advertised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted September 10, 2014 Share I don't think there is anything wrong with this (other than having the name printed on it -- ethics). It is adding competition to the market and will inevitably drive down the hugely inflated prices!! Bikes are still a niche market and unfortunately all the big players are keeping their prices high. I have it on good authority that an alu frame could cost as little as 2k to roll,weld,and incl material..this same fram is painted and a pretty name applied and is sold for 14k.... what other industry is making that much profit ?You have to include operating costs in there before you can turn profit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoBigBen Posted September 10, 2014 Share I just go back to one of my earlier comments that there are some on the Hub who feel that there is nothing wrong with it and it should in fact be encouraged but ja whateva blows your hair back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace Posted September 10, 2014 Share You have to include operating costs in there before you can turn profit... Sure lets do that.. Rent,elec,water,rates,salary of one tech to assemble/ 60 (frames per month.. on avg they expect to sell..) = a killer profit none the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted September 10, 2014 Share Sure lets do that.. Rent,elec,water,rates,salary of one tech to assemble/ 60 (frames per month.. on avg they expect to sell..) = a killer profit none the less.Dont forget...R&D / sponsorships / Advertising / operating expenses of HQ and you will see the pie has one slice left. James Mulholland, Danger Dassie and Jace 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon29er Posted September 10, 2014 Share R&D...sponserships...advertising....branding. China has none of that.You forget dealer trips to Eurobike and Interbike, freebies all around the world to ride new products in exotic locations, all in the price the consumer pays. R&D adds value. The rest? It does if you are the recipient! Jace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace Posted September 10, 2014 Share Dont forget...R&D / sponsorships / Advertising / operating expenses of HQ and you will see the pie has one slice left.True very true!! advertising is budgeted and so is sponsorships..so no matter how small that piece of pie becomes i feel its still huge in comparison to what a sparky or plumber or any artisan charging for his skills is making.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted September 10, 2014 Share You forget dealer trips to Eurobike and Interbike, freebies all around the world to ride new products in exotic locations, all in the price the consumer pays. R&D adds value. The rest? It does if you are the recipient!Sure....that one slice has just been halfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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