Buying 2nd hand: beware of being duped

[Hairy]

Oh what to do? What to do?

 

Frankly, as someone that has bought many second hand items, including forks off TheHUB, I find it far from plausible that you would have seen the damage and done nothing for months. I would propose a 4th explanation that you "Tossed" the fork in your boot, drove around with it for a period of time, and when you removed it, found the damage. The likelihood of the fork getting damaged whilst in your boot by whatever else might have been in there seems higher than you accepting and obviously damaged fork that you just spent a couple of grand on.

 

Now aside from that, Mr Mann has a pretty positive reputation amongst those that have dealt with him, and I would be less than inclined to believe some random mud-slinging with little logical argument such as yours. 

 

If it were me, you would probably have received your first lawyer's letter by now.

 

What is clear is that I will make careful note of your username, and be sure to never sell you anything. It just doesn't seem worth the risk.

 

 

Completely impartial party here but that photo suggests wear over a long time where the stanchion comes into contact with the bushing / seal / dirt in the fork. 

 

You can compare it various photos online of scuffed or worn stanchions especially on Fox forks. This could be prevented with regular servicing but I can't say if this was the case. Don't know the details on the fork's service record.

 

Please proceed to post all the photos you were sent of the fork as well as photos of the fork where you can clearly see this damage. I can even tell if what you posted is the actual fork you bought. Not saying it isn't but it's not much to go on.  

 

 

From the pic on page one I would agree on the damage being from wear and simply not being looked after. It certainly doesn't look like its from bouncing around in the boot of a car. Fox forks are apparently notorious for this stanchion wear and I made sure I never experienced it by regularly servicing my F32 when I still had my Trance.

 

Sadly though with anything you buy its always going to be let the buyer beware and if you can't get to see something before buying it then I would think twice unless you can afford to writeoff the price of the purchase.

As noted by others, but to expand. The pic shows what looks to be vertical wear/scratches in a very "rigid" pattern. This is from wear, if it was damage from storage the scratches would have been in an erratic pattern.

[Edge_Design]

One of you just need to post the pics from the ad and that should solve it (hopefully you didn't buy it without even seeing a pic of what you were purchasing). I'm sure the seller still has them saved somewhere if the buyer doesn't.

[Barry Stuart]

http://i.imgur.com/GUYwOOc.png

 

It's definitely stanchion wear rather than external damage but I still find it odd that the OP wouldn't have comprehended the severity of that immediately on picking them up. I'm a mechanical idiot but even I would be like "what the hell?"

[jamsack]

Hi guys,

 

The photos I received initially from Mr Mann are attached. Unfortunately you can't see the damaged area because it is located in the darker area next to the mudguard (the circled area). I've tried zooming in in Photoshop and toggling Levels but there is just no information there as it is a low res image and too dark.

 

The additional photo of the damage with ruler was taken by Andrew Haylett of Stoke Suspension.

 

Idiot me didn't take any pre-service photos, but I'd estimate about 7.5-10mm of that wear is visible above the line of the seal (happy to take one this eve to show the degree of visibility of the damage). So it would have been quite visible once the mudguard was removed.

 

Mr Mann will have to comment on service history for the fork.

 

Sam

 

ps. Apologies: by "throwing it in the boot" I meant it was stored in the vehicle without further thought until returning from a work trip a couple of weeks later. It was carefully stored!

pps. this is feeling more and more like some sort of social trial

[DR ◣◢]

If it sticks out only 7 to 10mm then it is 100% possible that the seller didn't notice it. 

 

I own a Fox fork and I never check in there. Removing the marsh guard would not make it blatantly obvious to me that there is damage unless I do a closer inspection. Could very well be that the seller didn't notice this. 

 

The photos also suggest that the fork is in excellent conditions and a bargain at the price of R2500. 

 

Why did you not bring this up with Alec upon picking the fork up. I am convinced he wasn't aware of this. If he was made aware of it at the time then this would have been a different situation. 

 

If I was him I would react the exact same. Your word is that you didn't use the fork. We don't know if that is true or not. 

 

Cut your losses and move on. There is no way to prove that the seller was aware of damage. Does the fork leak oil or lose air?

[arabsandals]

Hi Hubbers,

 

Sorry to use this forum to air a personal grievance, but I feel others need fair warning and there are some lessons to be learnt.

 

The story (sorry for the length - context is important):

 

I purchased a second hand Fox 32 Factory Series fork from a Mr Alec Mann in Pietermaritzburg late last year (November). I'm from Cape Town and not a bike expert, so I relied on Alec's good word regarding the fork's condition. He sent through some low res pics and all looked well. At a low price of R2500 I thought I was getting a genuinely good deal. Certainly wasn't expecting a mint quality fork at that price: external cosmetic issues and in need of a service, sure, but no catastrophic damage. In his words it was "in very good condition".

 

Payment was made in early November and I collected the fork from intermediary holders Greg Minnaar Cycles in early December (while on work up near PMB). On collection I noticed some deep scratches on the lower stanchions where they meet the seals. I was a miffed at not having been made aware of this but not being an expert I didn't fully appreciate the severity of the damage. A month had already passed since payment and I was in the middle of a typically frenetic work trip, so the fork was tossed in the boot and forgotten until the build.

 

This is the first lesson. I should have taken up the issue with Mr Mann as soon as I'd seen the fork and/or taken a photo of the damage and possibly had someone at the cycle store take note of it.

 

Finally at the end of January the fork was fitted to a beautiful Dave Mercer frame. Dave pretty much single handedly did the build (with me getting in the way). I'm not sure if he noticed the damaged fork, but at this stage my focus was on the new build, with the fork being a minor niggle to be sorted out later. Post-build the bike stood while I tried to resolve headset length and seat position issues as the riding style was a bit cramped. I test rode the bike, but I kept well clear of any off-road/dirt/rain/mud riding. As in ZERO.

 

After a serious motorcycle accident in April (which has put me off any riding since then) I decided to finally get the fork serviced so she'd be ready to ride once I'd recovered. I took the fork to Andrew Haylett of Stoke Suspension, who dropped the bombshell that the stanchion damage I'd noticed was basically terminal without a rebuild costing over R4k (see photo).

 

This is when I got in touch with Mr Mann, carefully outlining the issue and the timeline over which things happened. He denied knowledge of the deep scratches on the stanchion and basically accused me of taking the piss. I was initially willing to concede that he'd made a mistake and not seen the scratches, but in our final exchanges his view that "Even with scratches that fork is worth R2500" suggests that he knew about the damage all along. His best offer of compensation has been for me to send the fork back to him, have him resell it at some stage at some lower price and send me the money! In the words of George W Bush: "Fool me once...you can't get fooled again". Mr Mann has not even bothered to respond to my compromise suggestion that he at least pay for the service (which cost R900) as some form acknowledgement of his error.

 

My experience dealing with Hubbers has been excellent 99% of the time. But there are always going to be guys out there trying to put one over you. This leads me to the second lesson:  if you're buying something, whether remotely or in person, it's a good idea to have a recognised cycle store inspect the item for you if you're not an expert. I won't be making this mistake again.

 

Sam Jack

Cape Town

July 2015

If you can stomach it and can document your issue, take him to small claims court.

[Barry Stuart]

Hi guys,

 

The photos I received initially from Mr Mann are attached. Unfortunately you can't see the damaged area because it is located in the darker area next to the mudguard (the circled area). I've tried zooming in in Photoshop and toggling Levels but there is just no information there as it is a low res image and too dark.

 

The additional photo of the damage with ruler was taken by Andrew Haylett of Stoke Suspension.

 

Idiot me didn't take any pre-service photos, but I'd estimate about 7.5-10mm of that wear is visible above the line of the seal (happy to take one this eve to show the degree of visibility of the damage). So it would have been quite visible once the mudguard was removed.

 

Mr Mann will have to comment on service history for the fork.

 

Sam

 

ps. Apologies: by "throwing it in the boot" I meant it was stored in the vehicle without further thought until returning from a work trip a couple of weeks later. It was carefully stored!

pps. this is feeling more and more like some sort of social trial

 

 Not trying to play CSI because I can't be too sure but in the photo from Alec you've indicated it's the left stanchion but on the photo from Stoke Suspension it appears to be the right stanchion (assuming the fork is lying forward face down). If the fork is lying face up then it would be on the left stanchion as you indicate, however it would be on the inside front based on the Stoke photo, in which case it would have been obscured by the arch.

 

If that's the case then there is almost certainly no way Mr Mann would have been aware of it and he would have to take your word for it that 9 months after you bought the fork you noticed it was worn from when he sold it to you. Even if your story is 100% accurate you'd have to understand that a seller would be difficult to convince.

 

If you feel like you're on social trial that's just what happens when you air your grievances on a social forum.

[jamsack]

Yip, I totally should have dropped everything and gotten in touch immediately. (Lesson learnt).

 

But real life is more complicated than that, hence the context I keep referring to. When I collected the fork a month had already passed (we'd arranged that Mr Mann leave fork at Greg Minnaar's in the interim), so even though it was my first viewing in person, the legitimacy of a claim against the seller seemed (at least in my view) to have declined. Add to that my shaky ability to assess just how terminal the visible damage was, and the fact that I was in a flat spin in the middle of a work trip, and you get a more nuanced sense for why I didn't contact Mr Mann immediately.

 

Incidentally, it seems odd to me that no one has suggested the seller (especially the remote seller) has some responsibility in carefully inspecting the item he/she intends to sell and provide an honest appraisal of it's condition.

 

What bums me is not the fact that I was sold a defective product (anyone can make that mistake - and that was the initial view I took on this), it's the immediate belief by Mr Mann that I'm a liar and that I'd go to elaborate lengths (Long Whatsapp threads, carefully worded emails, photos from Stoke) to to give myself an outside chance of trying to reverse a fork purchase of R2500. Seriously?!

 

And don't worry, I HAVE moved on. My posting was meant as a warning and a lesson to others.

 

Sam

[jamsack]

 Not trying to play CSI because I can't be too sure but in the photo from Alec you've indicated it's the left stanchion but on the photo from Stoke Suspension it appears to be the right stanchion (assuming the fork is lying forward face down). If the fork is lying face up then it would be on the left stanchion as you indicate, however it would be on the inside front based on the Stoke photo, in which case it would have been obscured by the arch.

 

If that's the case then there is almost certainly no way Mr Mann would have been aware of it and he would have to take your word for it that 9 months after you bought the fork you noticed it was worn from when he sold it to you. Even if your story is 100% accurate you'd have to understand that a seller would be difficult to convince.

 

If you feel like you're on social trial that's just what happens when you air your grievances on a social forum.

Ja, the fork is flipped over in Andrews photo. Good CSIing though

[Pah Bear]

Well, all said and done, I thank thee dearest OP for sharing this. As a rookie, (roadie convert) I too will one day go this route and hope to learn from your experience. So ... lesson given and the aim of your thread has been reached, at least once. Ciao

[JXV]

As noted by others, but to expand. The pic shows what looks to be vertical wear/scratches in a very "rigid" pattern. This is from wear, if it was damage from storage the scratches would have been in an erratic pattern.

Agree. You can even see the unworn stripes corresponding to grooves in the bushing that serve to wet the foam rings and lubricate the bushing.

Lack of regular servicing :

1) dust gets in and mixes with oil to make a grinding paste

2) the oil eventually runs out and the bushings run dry.

3) anodised coating is much harder than the alu metal underneath.

3) as soon as the wear begins, clearance between stanchion and bushing increases leading to flex and higher friction when the stanchion now runs at an ever greater angle through the soft alu and softer bushing with no oil... damage accelerates exponentially.

 

This problem begins slowly and then deteriorates rapidly. Leaving months between purchase and service with occasional use in between could easily have led to an incipient problem becoming a serious one within perhaps only 100 km of riding. I think this problem began with original owner and worsened with neglect by new owner.

[T-Bob]

Incidentally, it seems odd to me that no one has suggested the seller (especially the remote seller) has some responsibility in carefully inspecting the item he/she intends to sell and provide an honest appraisal of it's condition.

 

 

That was the essence of one of my posts. Essentially without braking open the fork and inspecting pre sale (or have had a service in the previous couple of month) then you can't honestly claim it's in good, great or average condition. 

 

The first Qs I ask on suspension classifieds is 'when was it serviced, who serviced it and can I contact them?'. 

[Skylark]

I can appreciate the buyers pain but should all sales conducted on thehub henceforth come with a no questions asked refund/return guarantee if a buyer determines the item is not as described within 6-months of the sale date?

 

Does the Op think that would be fair?

[JXV]

I can appreciate the buyers pain but should all sales conducted on thehub henceforth come with a no questions asked refund/return guarantee if a buyer determines the item is not as described within 6-months of the sale date?

 

Does the Op think that would be fair?

6 months!......I like the idea of a 'buyer's protection' principle but I think 3 days is more appropriate.

[NixM]

I would feel like a real sh!t if I sold a fork to someone with that amount of stanction wear.

 

I have bought a few forks off thehub without seeing them first. I always make sure I have it in writing from the seller that the stanctions are perfect.

 

Thanks for the warning OP but 9 months does make your cause difficult. At least others will know what to look out for in the future.

[Meezo]

here's a problem. both low poster users. and whilst you might say he has a good reputation, no one has actually given him a rating until now. which brings me to this point again - USE THE RATING SYSTEM PEOPLE

 

 

on this, i sold a few items recently, about 4 or 5, all to different people none gave me feedback. makes me wonder, if its not a good idea, infact not sure if there is such a thing, am i able to forward to these users to review me?