New Zealand - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

[hayleyearth]

Thanks for all the responses!

 

My question is really geared towards what I should be asking for as a salary for a like for like switch between the 2 countries, trying to equip myself to ensure I don't sell myself short. Although I would take a cut (relative) if it meant I could secure the move sooner rather than later. I am a senior in the IT systems engineering space, and my current expectation was an increase of 20%, but based on above perhaps it should be more.

 

I understand that there are many factors to consider, however at the end of the day my motivation for the question was to set myself a target for negotiations.

Senior in IT ++$120k (plus benefits)!

At least.

[patches]

Thanks for all the responses!

 

My question is really geared towards what I should be asking for as a salary for a like for like switch between the 2 countries, trying to equip myself to ensure I don't sell myself short.  Although I would take a cut (relative) if it meant I could secure the move sooner rather than later.  I am a senior in the IT systems engineering space, and my current expectation was an increase of 20%, but based on above perhaps it should be more.

 

I understand that there are many factors to consider, however at the end of the day my motivation for the question was to set myself a target for negotiations.

 

The big corporate employers work like this.

 

Often they won't hire foreign talent for the same salary packages as the local equivalents. Many Saffers (including myself) get sold short when they first move over.

 

BUT it's not the worst thing in the world, and here's my reasoning behind it:

 

1. The employer is taking a chance on you. You live on the other side of the world. In many cases the only "meeting" is a skype interview. You likely have no NZ work experience and will often require some sort of visa sponsorship and relocation package.
2. It's a foot in the door. Getting here is the biggest hurdle. Work hard and moving up the ladder is not that hard. Employers will soon realise that although they took a chance on you and paid you below market salary, they will need to rectify that in order to keep you. I moved over for a liveable, but very modest package. However incremental increases every 3-6 months had me at 1.5x my initial salary, within 18months. Employers know you have to pay to keep good staff, which leads into the next point... 
3. People chop-and-change jobs in NZ like all the time. As Saffers we are so used to the mentality of clinging to a job for dear life, and also being so grateful the our employers, like they're doing us the biggest favour. Here (in many professional sectors) it's open season on head-hunting. I was headhunted after 2yrs in NZ (more than doubling my original NZ salary). A little bit of work experience in NZ does wonders. And even if one's visa is tied to their accredited employer, another accredited employer is often willing to buy that person out of their bond to the original employer, just to get good employees. My brother-in-law has just done this. Moved over as an eDiscovery expert for one of the big 4 (in Feb this year). Within 8 months of immigrating, another employer head-hunted him, offered more pay, better role, and paid the original employer the $18k odd worth of visa & relocation costs they had bonded against him. At first he felt terrible for leaving the employer that gave him a chance. But I told him that it just works different here. It's a small market. People move all the time. And bridges aren't burnt that easily. I know a number of consulting engineers that have done the rounds and ended up back at a previous employer.

So yeah, if you get the chance to move and the job pays a liveable package (even though it doesn't allow one to have the luxuries they're accustomed to in SA), I'd still recommend making the leap.I'd rather be here and have more ladder to climb, than be stuck on an upper rung in SA.

 

In SA, I had a fairly decent job with a great company. But my progression was slow and limited. I look at where I am now (about 4.5 years later), and that change in tack from SA to NZ, although initially backwards, has opened up doors that didn't even exist back there.

[Wayne Potgieter]

The big corporate employers work like this.

 

Often they won't hire foreign talent for the same salary packages as the local equivalents. Many Saffers (including myself) get sold short when they first move over.

 

BUT it's not the worst thing in the world, and here's my reasoning behind it:

 

1. The employer is taking a chance on you. You live on the other side of the world. In many cases the only "meeting" is a skype interview. You likely have no NZ work experience and will often require some sort of visa sponsorship and relocation package.
2. It's a foot in the door. Getting here is the biggest hurdle. Work hard and moving up the ladder is not that hard. Employers will soon realise that although they took a chance on you and paid you below market salary, they will need to rectify that in order to keep you. I moved over for a liveable, but very modest package. However incremental increases every 3-6 months had me at 1.5x my initial salary, within 18months. Employers know you have to pay to keep good staff, which leads into the next point... 
3. People chop-and-change jobs in NZ like all the time. As Saffers we are so used to the mentality of clinging to a job for dear life, and also being so grateful the our employers, like they're doing us the biggest favour. Here (in many professional sectors) it's open season on head-hunting. I was headhunted after 2yrs in NZ (more than doubling my original NZ salary). A little bit of work experience in NZ does wonders. And even if one's visa is tied to their accredited employer, another accredited employer is often willing to buy that person out of their bond to the original employer, just to get good employees. My brother-in-law has just done this. Moved over as an eDiscovery expert for one of the big 4 (in Feb this year). Within 8 months of immigrating, another employer head-hunted him, offered more pay, better role, and paid the original employer the $18k odd worth of visa & relocation costs they had bonded against him. At first he felt terrible for leaving the employer that gave him a chance. But I told him that it just works different here. It's a small market. People move all the time. And bridges aren't burnt that easily. I know a number of consulting engineers that have done the rounds and ended up back at a previous employer.

So yeah, if you get the chance to move and the job pays a liveable package (even though it doesn't allow one to have the luxuries they're accustomed to in SA), I'd still recommend making the leap.I'd rather be here and have more ladder to climb, than be stuck on an upper rung in SA.

 

In SA, I had a fairly decent job with a great company. But my progression was slow and limited. I look at where I am now (about 4.5 years later), and that change in tack from SA to NZ, although initially backwards, has opened up doors that didn't even exist back there.

Nicely said.

 

Sometimes you gotta take one or two steps backwards so you can get a running jump forwards.

[GrahamS2]

Gah - we've just had notice that our rental house is for sale - tenancy is until Feb, but looking for a house in Feb is chronic. 

 

This we know because our previous house was sold out from under us in Feb.

 

Second time it's happened.

 

I suspect they are looking for the FOMO prices going around at the moment, and I also suspect it will be way out of our price range to buy.

 

The exact reason why we've just bought. That, and the market is back on the rise here in a big way

[Spurs]

The big corporate employers work like this.

 

Often they won't hire foreign talent for the same salary packages as the local equivalents. Many Saffers (including myself) get sold short when they first move over.

 

BUT it's not the worst thing in the world, and here's my reasoning behind it:

 

1. The employer is taking a chance on you. You live on the other side of the world. In many cases the only "meeting" is a skype interview. You likely have no NZ work experience and will often require some sort of visa sponsorship and relocation package.
2. It's a foot in the door. Getting here is the biggest hurdle. Work hard and moving up the ladder is not that hard. Employers will soon realise that although they took a chance on you and paid you below market salary, they will need to rectify that in order to keep you. I moved over for a liveable, but very modest package. However incremental increases every 3-6 months had me at 1.5x my initial salary, within 18months. Employers know you have to pay to keep good staff, which leads into the next point... 
3. People chop-and-change jobs in NZ like all the time. As Saffers we are so used to the mentality of clinging to a job for dear life, and also being so grateful the our employers, like they're doing us the biggest favour. Here (in many professional sectors) it's open season on head-hunting. I was headhunted after 2yrs in NZ (more than doubling my original NZ salary). A little bit of work experience in NZ does wonders. And even if one's visa is tied to their accredited employer, another accredited employer is often willing to buy that person out of their bond to the original employer, just to get good employees. My brother-in-law has just done this. Moved over as an eDiscovery expert for one of the big 4 (in Feb this year). Within 8 months of immigrating, another employer head-hunted him, offered more pay, better role, and paid the original employer the $18k odd worth of visa & relocation costs they had bonded against him. At first he felt terrible for leaving the employer that gave him a chance. But I told him that it just works different here. It's a small market. People move all the time. And bridges aren't burnt that easily. I know a number of consulting engineers that have done the rounds and ended up back at a previous employer.

So yeah, if you get the chance to move and the job pays a liveable package (even though it doesn't allow one to have the luxuries they're accustomed to in SA), I'd still recommend making the leap.I'd rather be here and have more ladder to climb, than be stuck on an upper rung in SA.

 

In SA, I had a fairly decent job with a great company. But my progression was slow and limited. I look at where I am now (about 4.5 years later), and that change in tack from SA to NZ, although initially backwards, has opened up doors that didn't even exist back there.

 

Great response and I really appreciate the insights, it helps a lot.  The job is with one of the big 4, and I have a figure in mind which I believe is fair, although well below the 1.5X amount.  I think I will stick with that, however see if I can get commitment for a review 3-6 months after arrival.

[patham]

The exact reason why we've just bought. That, and the market is back on the rise here in a big way

 

Congrats on taking the plunge. Whereabouts did you buy ? 

[davetapson]

Great response and I really appreciate the insights, it helps a lot.  The job is with one of the big 4, and I have a figure in mind which I believe is fair, although well below the 1.5X amount.  I think I will stick with that, however see if I can get commitment for a review 3-6 months after arrival.

 

In my initial interviews I just asked what the salary range was for the role and said that I'd take mid point - or that I'd take mid-point for the salary range for the role if they were being cagey. 

 

You can say that you don't have an informed decision yet as to what you are worth in the NZ market, which as you haven't worked here before, is valid. 

I also found that the salary lists where optimistic - you'll find out soon enough with a couple of interviews what the current going rates are.

 

When you get a job, soon enough you and they will find out if you fit in with them and things will adjust accordingly, and if not, you stay a year and then look around...

Edited October 12, 2020 by davetapson

[GrahamS2]

Congrats on taking the plunge. Whereabouts did you buy ? 

Around the corner from you

[patham]

Around the corner from you

 

There goes the neighbourhood!

 

I'll bring a beer on moving day. Luckily I now have a lifetime exemption of having to actually assist in helping to move people.

 

PS. Bring snake repellent (this is not normally a statement you find on a NZ themed thread). I gather the local facebook pages are full of snake sightings and removals lately. We had our first carpet python of the season cruising across the driveway a few nights ago. 

[patches]

There goes the neighbourhood!

 

I'll bring a beer on moving day. Luckily I now have a lifetime exemption of having to actually assist in helping to move people.

 

PS. Bring snake repellent (this is not normally a statement you find on a NZ themed thread). I gather the local facebook pages are full of snake sightings and removals lately. We had our first carpet python of the season cruising across the driveway a few nights ago. 

 

[GrahamS2]

There goes the neighbourhood!

 

I'll bring a beer on moving day. Luckily I now have a lifetime exemption of having to actually assist in helping to move people.

 

PS. Bring snake repellent (this is not normally a statement you find on a NZ themed thread). I gather the local facebook pages are full of snake sightings and removals lately. We had our first carpet python of the season cruising across the driveway a few nights ago. 

You'll know the place. New development, just up from the school. 

Beers sound like an epic idea!

 

Ps. Need the name of your pool builder please

Edited October 13, 2020 by GrahamS2

[patches]

You'll know the place. New development, just up from the school. 

Beers sound like an epic idea!

 

Ps. Need the name of your pool builder please

 

That brings to mind an observation...

 

Are swimming pools common in Brisbane? I'd imagine with the heat they would be.

 

They're not very common in Auckland. And funny enough, even speaking to a friend who grew up in Perth, he said they're not that common there.

 

In JHB it's pretty common for middle-to-upper market houses to have one, and at one stage it was almost weird if a house didn't. 

[mazambaan]

Very interesting fred; the lives of modern day Great Trekkers.

 

But may I ask two questions about emigration?

 

What is the feeling about when NZ will "open" up to international travel or migration from SA?

 

Any thoughts on the teaching profession in NZ?

 

Neither for me but interested tribesman.

[patches]

Very interesting fred; the lives of modern day Great Trekkers.

 

But may I ask two questions about emigration?

 

What is the feeling about when NZ will "open" up to international travel or migration from SA?

 

Any thoughts on the teaching profession in NZ?

 

Neither for me but interested tribesman.

 

Not too sure on that first one. NZ has only just opened up a 1 way bubble with certain states in Australia. South Africa's risk profile is too high for the government's liking so it may be a while. I would say anything before April next year would be highly optimistic.

 

On that second one, generally SA teachers are very well liked here, and most of the SA teachers I know that have moved have found jobs really easily. Some even before their partners (who were the breadwinners back in SA).

 

Pay is reasonable, and ranges from about $50,000 upwards, depending on experience, what type of teacher (primary, secondary etc), and any specialties can pay a little higher. I knew a high school guidance counsellor in Christchurch who was on about $100k.

[patham]

That brings to mind an observation...

 

Are swimming pools common in Brisbane? I'd imagine with the heat they would be.

 

They're not very common in Auckland. And funny enough, even speaking to a friend who grew up in Perth, he said they're not that common there.

 

In JHB it's pretty common for middle-to-upper market houses to have one, and at one stage it was almost weird if a house didn't. 

 

 

I think swimming pool distribution here follows suburb histories & demographics. The old houses and blocks of land in the inner city suburbs are generally too small for pools, so not as common there. Suburbs developed in the 70's to 2000's often hit the sweet spot in terms of size of available space, people having brought up their kids in them so have put in pools, and also people becoming wealthier and being able to afford them.

 

Very new developments / suburbs are often starter homes, so people have not got the cash for a pool just yet.

 

But yes, pools are reasonably common. The weather helps. Although on the really bad 40 degree C days, you only can swim early morning and late afternoon without turning crispy. In Auckland, when the swimming weather can probably be measured in minutes per one or two days a year, there would not be so many kids clamouring for a pool. Aren't hot-tubs more popular though ?

[davetapson]

As the previous owner of a tree infested pool, if I never own a pool again it would be too soon.

 

Some friends of ours have moved into a house with a pool that is currently 12 deg or so, not even the kids will swim in it. 

I can't really see the value of a pool in Auckland, unless seriously heated.  Brisbane, maybe, but no trees. Better a neighbour with a pool..!

Which leads to the observation that those black hot water camping bags that used to get scorching in SA never really seem to get hot here.  There might be a real bite in the sun due to lack of UV, but there is no real heat in it somehow.