Discovery Health - Vitality & Team Vitality plus everything else you need to know

[Thor Buttox]

Uni, I've been giving this some thought lately, and honestly I don't think they're ever going to lose, even when looking at this in isolation - ie just the watch and smoothies, not gym savings or anything else.

 

Consider a single member, at R 200 per month for Vitality. Consider that in order for them to start making a loss, the client MUST hit all their targets, every week, and claim 2 smoothies / coffees each and every week. Smoothie is the more expensive option, so let's take that as an example. R45 per smoothie is the most expensive option. So that's R 360 per month for smoothies, and R 200 per month for the watch. R 560 per month for both options.

 

That's the equivalent of just less than 3 memberships "reward" for one payment.

 

Previous figures estimate that the overall level of "active" Vitality members (ie Gold / Silver) was in the region of 15-20%. That is, 80% are not engaging. At all. That means that for every one person who is using it properly, 4 aren't. Now that the Active Rewards has come through, they've seen an approximate 30% increase in overall activity. Let's even increase that by 50% - taking that 1 in 5 to 1.5 in 5 (20% to 30%).

 

Let's apply that to the numbers above.

 

From R 560 spend (by Discovery for a fully engaged individual) per R 1,000 contributions

 

To R 840 spend (50% increase) per R 1,000 contributions.

 

Now, I know that this is by no means accurate, as there are FAR more members not using any of the benefits than I've supposed above, and there are hectic cross subsidisations & savings in place across the board (savings on life policy payouts & reductions in lapse rate & health claims) but the above just shows that even with a 50% increase in "engagement" and a full utilisation of the benefit of the watch and smoothies, the Vitality program still pays for itself.

 

Factor in the rest of the benefits and the other cross subsidisations, and it's even more profitable. I cannot stress how much this actually saves them on an annual basis. Client retention alone is worth FAR more from a profitability standpoint, not to mention the claims reductions.

 

Fact of the matter is - a few smoothies and watch premiums are not going to bother them one single bit.

 

People abusing the system, however, does worry them. It's a behavioural analytics thing for them, and they want the data to be as clean and reliable as possible. That necessitates a dramatic shift from the initial guidelines, which - to be frank - were laughably simple to manipulate.

 

It WILL change in the future, of that I have no doubt. Was it a shift too far from the initial goals? Yes, but the more I think about it the more I think it was a deliberate action. To get as far away from the manipulators as possible, and actually get some clean data from which to build the goals up from again.

And to be fair, if the expected savings in medical bills from better health are present valued, there should be savings to them in their actuarial calcs when costing.

 

Are they brave enough to move their assumptions though.... (rhetorical font)

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thor Buttox

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Uni, I've been giving this some thought lately, and honestly I don't think they're ever going to lose, even when looking at this in isolation - ie just the watch and smoothies, not gym savings or anything else. 

 

Consider a single member, at R 200 per month for Vitality. Consider that in order for them to start making a loss, the client MUST hit all their targets, every week, and claim 2 smoothies / coffees each and every week. Smoothie is the more expensive option, so let's take that as an example. R45 per smoothie is the most expensive option. So that's R 360 per month for smoothies, and R 200 per month for the watch. R 560 per month for both options. 

 

That's the equivalent of just less than 3 memberships "reward" for one payment.

 

Previous figures estimate that the overall level of "active" Vitality members (ie Gold / Silver) was in the region of 15-20%. That is, 80% are not engaging. At all. That means that for every one person who is using it properly, 4 aren't. Now that the Active Rewards has come through, they've seen an approximate 30% increase in overall activity. Let's even increase that by 50% - taking that 1 in 5 to 1.5 in 5 (20% to 30%). 

 

Let's apply that to the numbers above. 

 

From R 560 spend (by Discovery for a fully engaged individual) per R 1,000 contributions

 

To R 840 spend (50% increase) per R 1,000 contributions.

 

Now, I know that this is by no means accurate, as there are FAR more members not using any of the benefits than I've supposed above, and there are hectic cross subsidisations & savings in place across the board (savings on life policy payouts & reductions in lapse rate & health claims) but the above just shows that even with a 50% increase in "engagement" and a full utilisation of the benefit of the watch and smoothies, the Vitality program still pays for itself. 

 

Factor in the rest of the benefits and the other cross subsidisations, and it's even more profitable. I cannot stress how much this actually saves them on an annual basis. Client retention alone is worth FAR more from a profitability standpoint, not to mention the claims reductions.

 

Fact of the matter is - a few smoothies and watch premiums are not going to bother them one single bit. 

 

People abusing the system, however, does worry them. It's a behavioural analytics thing for them, and they want the data to be as clean and reliable as possible. That necessitates a dramatic shift from the initial guidelines, which - to be frank - were laughably simple to manipulate. 

 

It WILL change in the future, of that I have no doubt. Was it a shift too far from the initial goals? Yes, but the more I think about it the more I think it was a deliberate action. To get as far away from the manipulators as possible, and actually get some clean data from which to build the goals up from again. 

Interesting analysis and most likely correct, but something that irks me no end is this attitude of... "Well in the future it will be better".. and its not only Discovery, this is a general trend across all spectrum's,.. "stand by it will get better".. to which I say thats fine, "but what about the incredible importance of now?" 

 

We tend to forget, today is also important to those who may not benefit in the future.

[Frosty]

It's not a case of wanting to.....it's a case of having to......then they might as well tell the fit crowd (and not me included as per your suggestion) that they don't want them on the Vitality program......I am very keen to see how many more complaints und unhappy people there will be when they start setting the weekly goals at around 800 on the current plan....even for the unfit crowd......

I'll let you know when the wife (unfit) and I (fit) get to 800 points and how it affects us both.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Interesting analysis and most likely correct, but something that irks me no end is this attitude of... "Well in the future it will be better".. and its not only Discovery, this is a general trend across all spectrum's,.. "stand by it will get better".. to which I say thats fine, "but what about the incredible importance of now?"

 

We tend to forget, today is also important to those who may not benefit in the future.

Absolutely. I think their now is at reset status. Reversion to something that rules out cheating (cropping workouts isn't cheating - you still did 80% plus for 30 min etc) but also allows clean data and a spot from which to lower the requirements or move other metrics in. Remember as well... as of now they only have 28 days of data. From Tuesday they'll finally have a full month of rewards and data on the newer version. It took them 2 months of data to determine that the goals were too low. Then another month before the new ones were phased in. I predict we will have a slight change in June / July.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Oh. I'd also love to have a seat at the vitality development table when it comes to this. Just to see what the thought processes and ideas are...

Edited April 28, 2016 by Myles Mayhew

[Uni]

 

I hear you - and I agree, i think Disco makes more money from ppl paying for services and add ons that aren't actually using it. 

 

I'm just thinking out loud what it would take to appease everyone if they were intent on clean data. With so many apps / devices out there - it would require all the major game players to agree to come on board and have an API that they could use to verify the data. 

 

The fact that "edited" data is acceptable already makes it hard for them to know if it's been gyppo'd or not. 

 

It would be interesting if you could be a fly on the wall and tell us what the hell is going on and what's their thinking. I just hope that they make sure all their tech works before their next announcement. 

[shaper]

 

People abusing the system, however, does worry them. It's a behavioural analytics thing for them, and they want the data to be as clean and reliable as possible. That necessitates a dramatic shift from the initial guidelines, which - to be frank - were laughably simple to manipulate. 

 

It WILL change in the future, of that I have no doubt. Was it a shift too far from the initial goals? Yes, but the more I think about it the more I think it was a deliberate action. To get as far away from the manipulators as possible, and actually get some clean data from which to build the goals up from again. 

Clean data LOLOLOLOLOL ... those that are unfit don't know better and are swiping without exercising to meet their 300-500 points.  Those that are the silver/gold/diamond are now manipulating their training results, be it recording portions of an activity or setting up second garmin accounts to selectively feed data or limited data to discovery.... where is the clean data in that???

 

Am surprised Discovery think with the new points system they are getting anywhere near actual and clean data.

 

To most who currently achieve goals after 2 or 3 activities and train daily, this is more of a game now to achieve the goals and play with the system and rules put in place.... keeps it fun!!

 

Unfortunately Discovery have lost a considerable amount of credibility with those that train as well as that percentage who actively engaged in the program, who had previously not even considered.

 

As someone said earlier, if the points system goes to 800 and those cannot swipe once a day to achieve it will fall flat on those they are trying to encourage, as they will loose interest and revert back to how they have been for the last however many years.  If it gets back to 1200 for those that train, doing 4 x HIIT workouts a week to achieve the goal, it will also fall flat. Especially if you are on a training program. 

 

Vitality UK have a completely different point system and it seems to work there... one wonders why Vitality SA are trying to reinvent the wheel and not utilised the same system and points award.

 

https://www.pruhealth.co.uk/Vitality/partners/Starbucks

 

There you get differing points for time and %MHR,  the longer the activity, the lower the %MHR

 

It also not perfect from what I can see as any activity over 60 mins (no matter what the duration) only gets awarded the same as a gym visit.... but at least they try to address and understand the physicality of trying to maintain an un-achievable %MRH over a longer training activity

[shaper]

I'll let you know when the wife (unfit) and I (fit) get to 800 points and how it affects us both.

There is nothing to stop you selectively uploading your workouts to hit your goals and achieving the awards (i.e your 2nd garmin account).  if you have created a garmin account for your wife, you can manually upload your unused extra activities to her account so that she achieves the goals   

 

You can think me later 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Shaper, please read my post in its entirety and not just the parts you want to read.

 

I said quite clearly that cropping or shortening rides is NOT cheating, as you have still done it. Therefore it is still clean data as it represents actual work done.

 

As for the gym swipers, until you can prove they actually worked you can't do anything. That data certainly isn't clean I will admit, but then they can also control for that in their stats by removing it completely

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

There is nothing to stop you selectively uploading your workouts to hit your goals and achieving the awards (i.e your 2nd garmin account). if you have created a garmin account for your wife, you can manually upload your unused extra activities to her account so that she achieves the goals

 

You can think me later

Except that the 2nd option is actually the precise reason they removedo Strava etc. So no. Don't.

 

And on the first one, you've still done the exercise.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Myles Mayhew

[shaper]

Except that the 2nd option is actually the precise reason they removedo Strava etc. So no. Don't.

As long as the activity is recorded with an approved device (garmin) and the activity has not been previously uploaded to another account, a garmin fit file can be uploaded manually to any garmin account..... and points will be awarded.  FACT as i know it is being done and working

[Frosty]

There is nothing to stop you selectively uploading your workouts to hit your goals and achieving the awards (i.e your 2nd garmin account). if you have created a garmin account for your wife, you can manually upload your unused extra activities to her account so that she achieves the goals

 

You can think me later

I would never do that... Use my rides for her account.

 

I will however take her for a tandem ride and let her use the Apple Watch to achieve her target, even if it means I have to do my own HIIT on the tandem at the same time.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

As long as the activity is recorded with an approved device (garmin) and the activity has not been previously uploaded to another account, a garmin fit file can be uploaded manually to any garmin account..... and points will be awarded.  FACT as i know it is being done and working

That's not the point. She didn't do it. You did. Therefore, you're still cheating the system if you're giving your workouts to someone else.

 

All the other workarounds - tapiriik etc - were to enable you to upload / record activities that you have ACTUALLY DONE. 

[shaper]

That's not the point. She didn't do it. You did. Therefore, you're still cheating the system if you're giving your workouts to someone else.

 

All the other workarounds - tapiriik etc - were to enable you to upload / record activities that you have ACTUALLY DONE.

 

And your point is? The moral high ground that we must play by the rules even though Vitality created the game, set the rules, got people to buy into the game... then changed the rules, which is detramental to some financially (mainly through their ignorance) but mostly because of the change in rules... sorry, doesnt wash, Vitality should have done their homework first before the introduction as they have certainly not played by their own rules!

 

Yet most are now tamporing with results legally to give skewed data... which is not actually ALL that they have done

['Kaze Pete]

I hear you - and I agree, i think Disco makes more money from ppl paying for services and add ons that aren't actually using it.

 

I'm just thinking out loud what it would take to appease everyone if they were intent on clean data. With so many apps / devices out there - it would require all the major game players to agree to come on board and have an API that they could use to verify the data.

 

The fact that "edited" data is acceptable already makes it hard for them to know if it's been gyppo'd or not.

 

It would be interesting if you could be a fly on the wall and tell us what the hell is going on and what's their thinking. I just hope that they make sure all their tech works before their next announcement.

Spoken like a true techie. Should the API be REST or not?

[slickandtyred]

Disco you biscuit