Seeding Frustration

[andydude]

The problem with the seeding currently is that anyone is able to get a A seeding.

Not really. I know what you mean, but not anyone and not easy. Will give more concrete examples later.

 

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[s14phoenix]

it takes lots of hanging on for dear life in a group faster than you.

 

and repeat...

 

94.7 from the lower groups you need to hang on where you can and ride from group to group moving forward with a lot of it as solo effort.

 

you need that 1 good result to kick you up to the next group and then you hang on again.

 

I have seen guys bring in a buddy by dropping a group or 2 to a buddy and then riding to get his seeding up by over powering the group and pacing their friend home for a obviously super result.

 

You see these guys with A or AL BL or VA VB VC numbers but riding with a lower group.

I am not sure if this is all above board but if this happens and you can also hang on to them it helps.

[Shell Belle]

Semi, im in F

 

Reason I was asking is that all us slow pokes were commenting on the sedate pace at the start, My heart rate barely got out of z2 in first 20km.... Then two gentlemen decided to get to know each other better and group split.. Six or 7 (did not count) E/F guys and lady managed to chase the pack down again over next 15km..

 

So what I'm trying to say is, The D guys for some reason at moment are not that fast, they even got caught at west coast express by H batch I think....

 

.........

 

 

Nice! So we rode together 

 

The first hour in D-F was about 37km so not tooo slow. We only finished with 8 guys I think.

 

West Coast was kind of special in the sense of yes D was playing around, but also there were two strong trains in H, namely Outriders and Sportsworld, which teamed up and did a good pace line.

 

I was the lady    Was a good day out.  

Just need to keep chipping away and hopefully pull something out the bag for Die Burger 

[Pure Savage]

it takes lots of hanging on for dear life in a group faster than you.

 

and repeat...

 

94.7 from the lower groups you need to hang on where you can and ride from group to group moving forward with a lot of it as solo effort.

 

you need that 1 good result to kick you up to the next group and then you hang on again.

 

I have seen guys bring in a buddy by dropping a group or 2 to a buddy and then riding to get his seeding up by over powering the group and pacing their friend home for a obviously super result.

 

You see these guys with A or AL BL or VA VB VC numbers but riding with a lower group.

I am not sure if this is all above board but if this happens and you can also hang on to them it helps.

It's allowed and happens all the time, sometime an entire team drops back and tows a few mates to a better seeding so can ride in same group in next event.

 

Also strong youngsters that have a rest day planned and tow their folks along in the M-O bunch.

[Karman de Lange]

I was the lady    Was a good day out.  

Just need to keep chipping away and hopefully pull something out the bag for Die Burger 

 

You were riding strong.  See you came second in ladies. , that's assuming you the one that stopped with suspected front flat....(Strava flyby stalking) 

[Shell Belle]

You were riding strong.  See you came second in ladies. , that's assuming you the one that stopped with suspected front flat....(Strava flyby stalking) 

That would be me! Hit the wall in the last 10km but got through.  Thanks for the help in the wind, it was much appreciated 

[J Wakefield]

Not really. I know what you mean, but not anyone and not easy. Will give more concrete examples later.

 

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A seeding index used to be a max of 4 when we raced league. What is the index now? I think it is 10?

 

10 used to be around F or G. 

 

Sitting chewing bar tape at 60kmh in a gutter is very different outcome when its a 4 or 10 seeding index rider.

 

Note: I say this respectfully to lower seeded riders, its not a attack on you, its a post on skill level and the level of current racing groups and the crashes that are at every race. 

[Pure Savage]

A seeding index used to be a max of 4 when we raced league. What is the index now? I think it is 10?

 

10 used to be around F or G.

 

Sitting chewing bar tape at 60kmh in a gutter is very different outcome when its a 4 or 10 seeding index rider.

 

Note: I say this respectfully to lower seeded riders, its not a attack on you, its a post on skill level and the level of current racing groups and the crashes that are at every race.

It used to be 6. Do you not find that the races with a nice climb in first half of race sort of seeds the group any way?

 

The other issue was that with the index of 6, in the races with alphabet soup, they would add B, C and D to make up the size of the group.

 

Do agree that an index of 10 is probably too high.

 

Seeding is a really tough task.

[J Wakefield]

It used to be 6. Do you not find that the races with a nice climb in first half of race sort of seeds the group any way?

 

The other issue was that with the index of 6, in the races with alphabet soup, they would add B, C and D to make up the size of the group.

 

Do agree that an index of 10 is probably too high.

 

Seeding is a really tough task.

 

 

It was 4 - trust me on that. I put myself through hell for 3 years to get there. haha.

 

There are no climbs in races anymore. thats the problem. Hels for 1 tonner doesn't really count. Before we had such quality race routes which didnt let anyone hide and the racing was a level above due to that.

 

A seeding should be 4 maybe 5. no more than that. 

 

Simple way is look at climbing VAM values you will see the difference straight away. 

[Pure Savage]

It was 4 - trust me on that. I put myself through hell for 3 years to get there.

Cool

 

 

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[J Wakefield]

To make the jump to C/D was pretty quick but then it took proper effort to do A or B seeding. You were allowed to race League at C which helped then from there as or if you progressed so did your seeding. 

 

People all complained then also that it was too hard for a A seeding but essentially they didnt have the skill or strength to get there. Now they lowered that index significantly and people still complain. 

[s14phoenix]

yes but it does not help if they back fill the A group with B and C riders to fill the group.

 

maybe group sizes are the problem - that said - once number of entries drop so will the requirement for such big starting groups so that the organizers can finish setting off everyone.

 

You can see it in the races. the A batch currently splits into about 3 groups so that's A B and C??? with 20-25 riders in each and maybe a break of 4 - 6 out front.

 

How about smaller A and B batches and then gradually increasing the batch sizes?

[Pure Savage]

yes but it does not help if they back fill the A group with B and C riders to fill the group.

 

maybe group sizes are the problem - that said - once number of entries drop so will the requirement for such big starting groups so that the organizers can finish setting off everyone.

 

You can see it in the races. the A batch currently splits into about 3 groups so that's A B and C??? with 20-25 riders in each and maybe a break of 4 - 6 out front.

 

How about smaller A and B batches and then gradually increasing the batch sizes?

Has happened before, then a big bunch of D/E catches the smaller B and C. Then more complaining.

 

I don't think you can ever make everyone happy.

[andydude]

A seeding index used to be a max of 4 when we raced league. What is the index now? I think it is 10?

 

10 used to be around F or G.

 

Sitting chewing bar tape at 60kmh in a gutter is very different outcome when its a 4 or 10 seeding index rider.

 

Note: I say this respectfully to lower seeded riders, its not a attack on you, its a post on skill level and the level of current racing groups and the crashes that are at every race.

The seeding index thing changed, thus not directly comparable. But for the league now you need a seeding of A-B, or index of 0-15.

 

To show the index using Sunday's PPA Sportif race:

 

Group D-F winning time 3:08:58 index 19,7 (Group D is 18,0 to 21,0)

 

Group Tandem-C winning time 2:54:59 index 11,6 (Group B is 10,0 to 15,0)

 

Group Cat 1 winning time 2:43:07 index 4,8 (Group A is 0,0 to 10,0)

 

The point is, as you explained, it's very difficult to move better than D. And Cat 1 is only for A to B.

 

Many of the crashes are stupid and some are by experienced riders. So not always buying the inexperienced thing.

 

On another point, how about coming to race in 2018 again? Would be good to have you back [emoji1]

 

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['Dale]

Not really. I know what you mean, but not anyone and not easy. Will give more concrete examples later.

 

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Looking forward to wheelsucking your roleur engine in a few races, andydude. ????

[J Wakefield]

The seeding index thing changed, thus not directly comparable. But for the league now you need a seeding of A-B, or index of 0-15.

 

To show the index using Sunday's PPA Sportif race:

 

Group D-F winning time 3:08:58 index 19,7 (Group D is 18,0 to 21,0)

 

Group Tandem-C winning time 2:54:59 index 11,6 (Group B is 10,0 to 15,0)

 

Group Cat 1 winning time 2:43:07 index 4,8 (Group A is 0,0 to 10,0)

 

The point is, as you explained, it's very difficult to move better than D. And Cat 1 is only for A to B.

 

Many of the crashes are stupid and some are by experienced riders. So not always buying the inexperienced thing.

 

On another point, how about coming to race in 2018 again? Would be good to have you back [emoji1]

 

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Great post but the point is the the A-B is a index of 0-15. should be 0-6. Essentially you now have A-J in a group. 

 

I would honestly love to come race, you have no idea how much I miss it on the road but Im not really prepared to train like I did before to race a 1hr flat crit or a road race that 1 x 5min climb in 60km before the end. I have no issue racing that if there is a variation where that doesn't suite me but then another race within the series does. 

 

The other element is the crashes, they way to often in every race and if I crash due to someone inexperienced I don't work on Monday and I have to buy a new bike or parts compared to someone not going to school any my parents buying it for me. 

 

2014 1 Tonner was a eye opener to me where the level was in the bunch. Its just not worth it locally to me. Flame away I am fine with it. 

 

Bring back what we had and I am there like Donkey Kong but until then I will do the MTB stage races and ToGH etc. its enough to make me happy.

 

I also enjoy spending what would be race entries to go ride around Europe each year which is honestly better than any race in my personal opinion.