Accident in the cradle.

[shaper]

True that.

 

More useful discussion to be had with Kallie on the definition of Crimes Against Humanity.

 

Strongs to Shaper with the emotional baggage of wittnessing this crash up close and to Victor with the road to recovery.

 

I'm out.

Thanks, but have seen and experience worse and there no real emotional attachment or baggage to deal with, not from the accident... now the hub... that a different kettle of fish!!

 

The OP asked the question of what happened and that has been answered.

 

The focus should be on maybe cycle etiquette and safety of group riding when out training and no road closures and at MORE IMPORTANTLY regular updates on Victor and his road to recovery.

 

On that final note, V12man, if you be so kind sir to keep us update of anything that you hear, it would be much appreciated.

Edited May 15, 2018 by shaper

[shaper]

 

I find it interesting that you look to dismiss eye witness reports and insert your own theories and conclusions.  

 

I have not inserted any of my own theories and conclusions.

 

The fact that eye witness evidence is notoriously untrustworthy is well understood and has been documented as such by courts, scientists and academics. I won't bore you with copious detail, but here is just one (scholarly) article. Read it, you WILL learn something and may even find it useful:

 

https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=ijaaa

 

I have have my fair share of cycling accidents, broken ribs and still have a plate in my collar bone.  You are also dismissive of the reporting of events by trying to insert your own conjecture, yet know nothing of me, my aptitude and the fact that I have a clear black and white clinical nature (but that is of no matter here).  The fact is you are dismissive.  

 

I am not dismissive of you. I am merely pointing out the scientific and jurisprudential fact that eye witness reports have overwhelmingly been shown to be unreliable.

 

​NOTE: not that you, or even your evidence is unreliable but only that eye-witness reports as a rule are less reliable than generally considered.

 

As you seem to know all that went on without being there, perhaps you can advise what kit Victor was wearing? You think many would remember that, especially from someone just about to latch onto an unfamiliar group and then witnessing an accident in a blink of a millisecond?

 

Sarcasm does not advance the discussion. I was not there. But unless this incident lies beyond the field of research in the reliability of eyewitness reports, it is likely that there will be little conformity in people's description. Refer any of the thousands of  academic studies and/or court judgement that had to deal with the phenomenon. 

 

I recognise that he could not have foreseen a cyclist would fall infront of him, but he could have forseen that a cyclist could, and so should not have started overtaking.

 

Tell me, when a jaywalker just steps out in front of your car and you knock him over and you are just driving on the road but aware of people walking next to the road, do you stop driving because they are and you should forsee that they might step in front of your car?... lets be real about this!!

 

No, but on Sunday 1 April 1979 at about 15h00 heading up the hill on Glenhove Ave towards the corner of  5th street Houghton, a drunk pedestrian I had seen, stumbled off the pavement and straight into me on my motorbike. If you are interested enough you will find all of this detail in the inquest report as he did not make it. 

 

I was exonerated but it changed my life and not only because of the time I spent in hospital, on crutches and with a shorter leg. I will ALWAYS consider what stupid moves others may make and moderate by actions accordingly. It won't keep me safe, but it improves my odds.  

 

Accordingly, I don't ride in or join groups in the Cradle, I only ride in races with full road closure, gladly drop out of a bunch if guys are riding erratically and when driving in the Cradle never overtake a bunch of cyclists if there is any oncoming traffic. I am happy to sit behind and wait. It rarely costs me any time.

 

So yes, I AM real about it.

 

Keep talking, you digging yourself deeper trying to prove your own conjecture with baseless anecdotes.

 

I have dealt with this politely above.

 

As for emotionally invested, no and yes.  No, I did not know Victor and Yes because he is a fellow cyclist and Yes because the driver of the truck was involved in what is best described as a freak accident and Yes because 2 families are now impacted.

 

And what a joke to try an insinuate an emotional investment on someone on the outside looking in and reporting concisely and clearly what was seen.  No theories, no maybe's, no conjecture... just facts as witnessed!!

 

I did not mention emotional investment in a negative context. You saw something traumatic. It must affect you. And again, objectively, trauma is one of the things that affect accuracy of eye witness statements. Not my opinion. It is part of the scientific consensus. 

 

Our interaction and conversation here is ended, you know nothing of me yet try to presume... that in itself shows that any conversation will be endless and quite frankly meaningless.  However it does give me an assessment of you!

 

The bottom line is "YOU WERE NOT THERE".

 

Anyone needs me for an inquest report or anything of that nature, please PM me.  

 

I will no longer entertain peoples interpretation of what should or could or correct them on what DID happen.... I will leave you to your wild conjecture and just seek out the reports on Victors well being and hopefully full recovery.

[L46]

 

 

Lack of discipline from the group could potentially cost 2 people everything. 1 with his life and 1 with his livelihood and those causing this walks away with a bent rim and a insurance claim just to do it again next month. The attitude that we as cyclists are never wrong and have a right to do what we want needs to end

 

If this is not a wake up call for groups to be more disciplined then I don't know what would be. The obvious easy scapegoat here is that the Truck driver is 100% at fault that I don't agree with.

 

We should potentially limit group sizes or split them for safety. Bunches of 50 should potentially be split into 3 groups of 15 odd with a 5-10m gap in between them. Keeping to the "single file" rule to avoid big bunch ups when there is a emergency situation and nowhere to bail but into traffic.

 

Also the responsibility is with everyone to speak up when you see a group or multiple riders doing something stupid or negligent. Ultimately its in the best interest of everyone.

 

On that first point, I don't think anyone did anything wrong on purpose, but strictly speaking in terms of the law yes both parties might be in the wrong from whichever point you want to argue this.  Let's not throw stones around at the club for organizing group rides to help grow the sport in our country, they are putting themselves at risk to help others.

 

Secondly, the whole single file and 2 second following distance gap is just ridiculous when it comes to road cycling and riding in groups, and yes I know that is what the law says and we can argue all year round, but my view is that a bunch (like we get in racing) is much safer than 50 guys in single file spread out over almost a kilometer, for everyone involved (vehicles and cyclists).  Let's just leave the law out of this and think logical about it.  If you travel at 30kmph you need a gap of about 16m between you and the guy in front of you to hold a safe following distance of 2 seconds, which means group riding should strictly speaking then be illegal.

 

Not arguing with you, just raising some logical points with regards to riding on the road.  

[Escapee..]

Our interaction and conversation here is ended, you know nothing of me yet try to presume... that in itself shows that any conversation will be endless and quite frankly meaningless.  However it does give me an assessment of you!

 

The bottom line is "YOU WERE NOT THERE".

 

Anyone needs me for an inquest report or anything of that nature, please PM me.  

 

I will no longer entertain peoples interpretation of what should or could or correct them on what DID happen.... I will leave you to your wild conjecture and just seek out the reports on Victors well being and hopefully full recovery.

 

 

Shaper am I correct to understand that the vehicle wasn't overtaking but it was pretty much driving down the middle of the road as to stay out of the way of the cyclist on both sides?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

How far into the road did the injured cyclist venture when the accident happened?

 

I really feel for the driver, he was just doing his job and also doing something most of us would have done.

 

BUT

 

If he was on the other side of the road..legally he will be in the wrong.

 

This really really is a terrible accident. Truly hope everyone gets out of this with no injuries or baggage or worse

[MTB-More]

On that first point, I don't think anyone did anything wrong on purpose, but strictly speaking in terms of the law yes both parties might be in the wrong from whichever point you want to argue this.  Let's not throw stones around at the club for organizing group rides to help grow the sport in our country, they are putting themselves at risk to help others.

 

Secondly, the whole single file and 2 second following distance gap is just ridiculous when it comes to road cycling and riding in groups, and yes I know that is what the law says and we can argue all year round, but my view is that a bunch (like we get in racing) is much safer than 50 guys in single file spread out over almost a kilometer, for everyone involved (vehicles and cyclists).  Let's just leave the law out of this and think logical about it.  If you travel at 30kmph you need a gap of about 16m between you and the guy in front of you to hold a safe following distance of 2 seconds, which means group riding should strictly speaking then be illegal.

 

Not arguing with you, just raising some logical points with regards to riding on the road.  

 

If we take the law out of it. Then I would say if we have to be logical get out of the damn road as the truck will win every time.

 

Also a club ride is not a race. Why time after time the leader have to tell the riders to get back in line or go single file? If you want to be in a race scenario then go race. There is practically a event every weekend somewhere. Go be the hero there where you have space and a cordoned off area specifically for you. When on a club ride follow the road rules and stay behind your Marshal. 

 

If its not practical or fun to be safe and follow the rules then maybe its time to consider a different sport. If your club group is 50 large consider a different group or different club. You cant want to be reckless and safe at the same time and blame others. Then you need to take the responsibility of your actions when you get hurt. In this case Victor paid the price for others riding that way.

 

Anyways points have been made. I feel for both parties in this and am not naive to think the cyclists were innocent here (like so many suggest) and the truck driver guilty. The truck driver would possibly need to go for trauma counseling and would potentially hamper him from doing his job properly for the rest of his live. 

 

I'm bowing out

 

Edit - When saying "you" not referring to you personally but in general

Edited May 15, 2018 by MTB-More

[Bonus]

Hope someone can keep the updates coming re Victor.

[Mr Winter]

Hope someone can keep the updates coming re Victor.

 

Does any one have an update?

[shaper]

Does any one have an update?

Avi Mistry

23 May at 21:48

FYI - for those that asked about Victor Chatue’s progress

This is the latest from his wife, Charline, as of tonight :-

Victor is doing much better, but still in hospital. He is strong and with God he has made great progress. We continue to pray and praise God. He would like to get home and is talking about riding his bike. He remembers the incident with vivid detail.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1007635532613664/

[nathrix]

https://www.netwerk24.com/Nuus/Algemeen/fietsryer-met-opset-raak-gery-20180605

[Vetplant]

https://www.netwerk24.com/Nuus/Algemeen/fietsryer-met-opset-raak-gery-20180605

So, Hit&Run on Sunday morning. Anyone else saw this swerving vehicle and got a license plate number? Culprit should be prosecuted!

[nathrix]

So, Hit&Run on Sunday morning. Anyone else saw this swerving vehicle and got a license plate number? Culprit should be prosecuted!

 

Good question

 

Edit:

I see a thread was created https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/177170-why-why-why/

Edited June 5, 2018 by nathrix ® ©™