The Veganism Thread

[Patchelicious]

Regarding the 'carnivore diet', I think we can all agree that we instinctively know that eating only meat plants is not natural to the human species and that this is a fad diet. 

 

Could this be said then too?

 

Edit: Im not being facetious, Im trying to understand the rules of the game here.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Patchelicious

[Eldron]

Could this be said then too?

 

Edit: Im not being facetious, Im trying to understand the rules of the game here.

I'm with you on this one.

 

I've never been a fan of any exclusionary diets. Balance is better in all things.

 

The question is - how much of everything is right. In this age of (relative) gluttony and free choice deciding on the right mix is tough (especially with every Internet hack saying how a new and amazing 'eat only yellow foods starting with a Q cured my cancer'.

[Thor Buttox]

That might cause me to lactate, and we know how we feel about mammal milk on this thread.

Well, there's a lactate tolerance test I'm not using in my coaching regimen...

[Thor Buttox]

Regarding the 'carnivore diet', I think we can all agree that we instinctively know that eating only meat is not natural to the human species and that this is a fad diet.

 

Being a fad diet which has only recently reared its head, there is basically no research done on the health outcomes of persons eating this way. Has any public health body ever recommended anything close to a 'carnivore' diet? So, if you want to bet your long term health on #meatheals then go right ahead.

 

Stick a typical day's carnivorous eating in cronometer and the only thing that is going to look rosy is your rock hard stools:

 

Capture.PNG

Capture2.PNG

 

Like Uni said, this could result in some weight loss for some people in that they're eliminating processed foods and basically could even go into ketosis. However, I can see no basis on which this is health promoting, especially in the long term. You'll be chronically micro-nutrient deficient and your going to turn your microbiome into a dust bowl.

 

I guess Peterson is going to have to invest in some fancy porcelain veneers once all his teeth start falling out of his mouth.

 

Rock-hard Stools is the tribute band for the Rolling Stones, are they not? Edited January 30, 2019 by Thor Buttox

[Odinson]

Could this be said then too?

 

Edit: Im not being facetious, Im trying to understand the rules of the game here.

 

That's a fair question and I'll give you a fair answer. 

 

At present, there is no scientific evidence that a 100% plant-based diet is the best diet (I know that 'best diet' is incredibly loaded, but let's take it as being the diet that is associated with the best health outcomes, i.e. longevity, low risk of chronic illnesses, etc.). 

 

However, what we have is 1) short to medium term studies on the health benefits of a plant-based diet supporting that position and 2) (among others) supportive science in the form of the 'Blue Zone' studies. 

 

I've touched a lot on the fact that vegans have lower cancer, diabetes, CVD, etc. risk, so I'd rather discuss the 'Blue Zones'. Basically, these are communities around the world which have the largest proportion of centenarians and lower occurrences of typical chronic illnesses and diseases. Now, when you look at there diets, they eat a 90-95% plant-based diet, with little to no processed foods. There are also other important lifestyle elements: strong sense of community, regular low intensity exercise, low stress and so on. 

 

So, it would be fair to say that at present and based on current evidence, a 90-95% whole foods plant-based diet is the 'best diet'. However, there are a few things to take into account: 1) many studies have shown the dose-response relationships of plant foods, whereby eating more, accords a greater benefit 2) in the near future, we'll be have the benefit of long-term studies who have looked into vegan diets over the long term 3) that final 10-5% I choose to stick my ethical convictions in - I don't want to hurt or exploit animals, so I'm not going to eat or wear them and neither do I want our planet to be destroyed for that purpose. 

 

I think that we're not that far away from a point where there will be prevailing scientific consensus that a whole food plant based diet will be associated with the best health outcomes in the majority of a population.

[Patchelicious]

If a herbivore diet was so much healthier for humans, would we not have evolved to eat only plants through natural selection?

[Goodbadugly]

If a herbivore diet was so much healthier for humans, would we not have evolved to eat only plants through natural selection?

Meaning that we should be able to digest cellulose. Like the ruminants.

[Chris_]

If a herbivore diet was so much healthier for humans, would we not have evolved to eat only plants through natural selection?

 

Look at the state of typical western diet (because thats really what we're arguing against) persons health. Do you think this evolution is not currently in progress? With all that we have is our 'health' improving and disease on the downtrend?

 

Edit: I suppose this speaks more broadly than just diet, but it sure is a huge part

Edited January 30, 2019 by CBlake

[Uni]

If a herbivore diet was so much healthier for humans, would we not have evolved to eat only plants through natural selection?

I think  you'll find that the teeth of humans today are already much smaller and the incisors much less pronounced that that of say 20000 + years back. 

[Mudsimus]

I think you'll find that the teeth of humans today are already much smaller and the incisors much less pronounced that that of say 20000 + years back.

Not only from diet but from the way meat are better processed. We dont need to tear chunks of meat from bones anymore.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Mudsimus

[Odinson]

If a herbivore diet was so much healthier for humans, would we not have evolved to eat only plants through natural selection?

 

We're the first species in this planet's history that have the cognitive abilities to choose their desired diet. There's a whole host of indicators that we've evolved plant-eaters.

 

Most members of the great ape family, of which we're one, can to some extent eat outside of its typical diet, as a mechanism to fend off starvation. 

 

BUT, we're sitting in 2019 where starvation is no longer a concern for Westerners and most people's diets are decided on by what they crave. We now have the abilities to reason about out diet, do research and understand what the effect of 7.7billion humans' diet has on this planet.

 

Male humans have also evolved to have a drive to procreate, but we now, as a civilized society, accept that we can't just knock a woman over the head, rape and impregnate her to ensure our genes are passed on. 

[Patchelicious]

We're the first species in this planet's history that have the cognitive abilities to choose their desired diet. There's a whole host of indicators that we've evolved plant-eaters.

 

Most members of the great ape family, of which we're one, can to some extent eat outside of its typical diet, as a mechanism to fend off starvation.

 

BUT, we're sitting in 2019 where starvation is no longer a concern for Westerners and most people's diets are decided on by what they crave. We now have the abilities to reason about out diet, do research and understand what the effect of 7.7billion humans' diet has on this planet.

 

Male humans have also evolved to have a drive to procreate, but we now, as a civilized society, accept that we can't just knock a woman over the head, rape and impregnate her to ensure our genes are passed on.

You are introducing a whole new discussion.

 

My question was a simple health one, not a cognitive or moral one. I’m not asking about teeth either.

 

My question is simple.

 

If a herbivore based diet was the healthiest diet and gaive us as humans the best survivability, would we not have evolved to be herbivores through natural selection. Where plant eaters would outlive and outsurvive the omnivores?

 

We don’t need to compare ourselves to apes, we know what humans ate since we split from the apes. It could be argued that the meat we ate is why we evolved further than the great apes.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Patchelicious

[Odinson]

You are introducing a whole new discussion.

 

My question was a simple health one, not a cognitive or moral one. I’m not asking about teeth either.

 

My question is simple.

 

If a herbivore based diet wad the healthiest diet and give us as humans the best survivability, would we not have evolved to be herbivores through natural selection. Where plant eaters would outlive and outsurvive the omnivores?

 

We don’t need to compare ourselves to apes, we know what humans ate since we split from the apes. It could be argued that the meat we ate is why we evolved further than the great apes.

I can’t give you the exact answer. I’m not an evolutionary biologist. Like I said, humans, like other great apes, can digest animal protein. It doesn’t mean that that we’ve evolved to have animal protein form a large chunk of our diet.

 

The question you’re asking in regards to longevity will be impossible to study.

 

Seeing that animal protein consumption is linked with increased all cause mortality risk, if you could withhold medical intervention (insulin, bypass surgery, statins, etc.) then perhaps we can see that difference you’re talking about.

[Edition 507]

I think you should believe the opening line where the guy says he isn't an expert and doesn't recommend any diet.

 

It's flippin dangerous taking any diet advice from any "moving meme" whether pro or anti veganism.

Absolutely, I agree with you 100%. The problem with a vegan diet is that it is advocated and adopted from a moral and ethical perspective.

[Barend de Arend]

It could be argued that food storage (grains and salted meat) are why we were more successful than the other apes.

 

It could also be argued that diet adapted to circumstance (exercise, and environment.)  More exercise needed more protein, and a diet in the arctic likely contains much more fat than a diet in the tropics.

 

It's very likely that we have gene expressions that activate under harsh conditions and change our dietary requirements.  "Harsh" could be starvation, extreme temperature, or just exercising 40 hours a week.

 

So what does the average couch potato in a moderate climate (or heated / cooled house) need?  That's what most of the research tries to answer.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Barend de Arend

[Goodbadugly]

I can’t give you the exact answer. I’m not an evolutionary biologist. Like I said, humans, like other great apes, can digest animal protein. It doesn’t mean that that we’ve evolved to have animal protein form a large chunk of our diet.

 

The question you’re asking in regards to longevity will be impossible to study.

 

Seeing that animal protein consumption is linked with increased all cause mortality risk, if you could withhold medical intervention (insulin, bypass surgery, statins, etc.) then perhaps we can see that difference you’re talking about.

Balance. That is what is needed.