The Veganism Thread

[100Tours]

Tours, you're right about your first distinction between vegans and vegetarians.

 

Where I'll disagree with you is the claims as to vegans believing non-vegans are 'bad people'.  Not being vegan doesn't make you a bad person in the same way that being a vegan doesn't make you a good person. 

 

Replying to both, and I do realise this is a simplificaiton, and that means certain limitations.

 

 

 

Where I think many vegans take issue is when people are made aware of the suffering of the animals and the planet and still shrug it off or deny it.

 

Are farmed animals by definition suffering? Or any animals used by people for that matter. And does not using animal products reduce suffering by this definition? I dispute both points, but if we're arguing about beliefs then that's not going to find a resolution.

 

I'll agree that stock pens for cattle and overcrowded chicken broilers etc. are undesirable, and I think that regulation could do more to improve conditions - i.e. EU rather than US regulatory model. Ultimately though I see a world where we need to utilise animals/animal products.

 

 

 

Still, that doesn't make you a 'bad person'.

 

Less good maybe? You believe that animals are suffering. I am not prepared to work towards putting a stop to it. If I am not ignorant, you must conclude on some level that I am either unethical or stupid? It is an important point - there isn't much space in your world for my point of view.

 

 

 

we, collectively and individually, have to take action where and when we can in the face of injustice. Adopting a vegan lifestyle is one of those ways to take action.

 

injustice echoes the first point - animal utilisation is not unjust in most people's world view. Is horse-riding unjust for example? is it unjust to keep pets? (or perhaps is it unjust to put down an old dog or cat?) Why then is it unjust to keep chickens for eggs or cows for milk, or to shear sheep. And why is in unjust to then slaughter animals for food or leather.

 

Adopting a vegan lifestyle is then a way of making a point about how you feel. but its hardly going to change the world. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by 100Tours

[Odinson]

Replying to both, and I do realise this is a simplificaiton, and that means certain limitations.

 

 

 

 

Are farmed animals by definition suffering? Or any animals used by people for that matter. And does not using animal products reduce suffering by this definition? I dispute both points, but if we're arguing about beliefs then that's not going to find a resolution.

 

I'll agree that stock pens for cattle and overcrowded chicken broilers etc. are undesirable, and I think that regulation could do more to improve conditions - i.e. EU rather than US regulatory model. Ultimately though I see a world where we need to utilise animals/animal products.

 

 

 

 

Less good maybe? You believe that animals are suffering. I am not prepared to work towards putting a stop to it. If I am not ignorant, you must conclude on some level that I am either unethical or stupid? It is an important point - there isn't much space in your world for my point of view.

 

 

 

 

injustice echoes the first point - animal utilisation is not unjust in most people's world view. Is horse-riding unjust for example? is it unjust to keep pets? (or perhaps is it unjust to put down an old dog or cat?) Why then is it unjust to keep chickens for eggs or cows for milk, or to shear sheep. And why is in unjust to then slaughter animals for food or leather.

 

Adopting a vegan lifestyle is then a way of making a point about how you feel. but its hardly going to change the world. 

 

Tours, put your arguments in the human context and see how you view them. 'Are slaves by definition suffering...' If you reject those arguments, then you agree with veganism. Why? Because animals are just like us in all the ways that matter. They desire to be with their own kind. To have freedom of movement. To be free from pain. To have and raise their young. Our exploitation deprives them of those basic freedoms. 

 

For a long time people exploited slaves in the same way that we now exploit animals. We deprived them of basic freedoms and justice to serve our selfish needs (this goes beyond just the food system). 

 

And I disagree with your last point. Veganism does and will change the world. Perhaps not in the way that many people think and perhaps it will still take a considerable time, but it will.  

 

[Mojoman]

Replying to both, and I do realise this is a simplificaiton, and that means certain limitations.

 

 

 

 

Are farmed animals by definition suffering? Or any animals used by people for that matter. And does not using animal products reduce suffering by this definition? I dispute both points, but if we're arguing about beliefs then that's not going to find a resolution.

 

I'll agree that stock pens for cattle and overcrowded chicken broilers etc. are undesirable, and I think that regulation could do more to improve conditions - i.e. EU rather than US regulatory model. Ultimately though I see a world where we need to utilise animals/animal products.

 

 

 

 

Less good maybe? You believe that animals are suffering. I am not prepared to work towards putting a stop to it. If I am not ignorant, you must conclude on some level that I am either unethical or stupid? It is an important point - there isn't much space in your world for my point of view.

 

 

 

 

injustice echoes the first point - animal utilisation is not unjust in most people's world view. Is horse-riding unjust for example? is it unjust to keep pets? (or perhaps is it unjust to put down an old dog or cat?) Why then is it unjust to keep chickens for eggs or cows for milk, or to shear sheep. And why is in unjust to then slaughter animals for food or leather.

 

Adopting a vegan lifestyle is then a way of making a point about how you feel. but its hardly going to change the world. 

Every single person can make a difference in the world...but its entirely up to you if you want to make an effort and try...

 

[Eldron]

Every single person can make a difference in the world...but its entirely up to you if you want to make an effort and try...

 

How does the saying go? My vote will never make a difference....said 30% of the UK voting population. Hello brexit :-)

[Chris_]

Finally tried a Beyond Meat patty last night! And we were gobsmacked...

 

For those in Joburg - Hudsons in Parkhurst has a whole vegan section on their menu. We got one burger with the Beyond patty, and another with 'BBQ seitan ribs'. 

 

The consistency, taste and just the look of the patty was crazy, I was amazed. The \ribs' had that almost burnt outer layer with the ubiquitous sweet BBQ sauce and was unnervingly similar.

 

We'll certainly be back for more.

[Eldron]

Finally tried a Beyond Meat patty last night! And we were gobsmacked...

 

For those in Joburg - Hudsons in Parkhurst has a whole vegan section on their menu. We got one burger with the Beyond patty, and another with 'BBQ seitan ribs'.

 

The consistency, taste and just the look of the patty was crazy, I was amazed. The \ribs' had that almost burnt outer layer with the ubiquitous sweet BBQ sauce and was unnervingly similar.

 

We'll certainly be back for more.

Good to know. Thanks for the intel.

 

Seitan is amazing stuff. The most meat tasting non meat I've ever had.

[Rocket-Boy]

RB, I mean this sincerely, have you taken the time to reflect on why it is that vegans advocate? 

I have, it doesnt mean anyone wants to get bashed with it though.

You realize that the religious zealots for <insert religion> feel the same way about their religion too?

Is it something you enjoy being on the receiving end of?

[Rocket-Boy]

It's flesh right? From an animal...

 

One man's delicious veal cutlets is another man's dissected baby cow. Both are technically correct.

I prefer the Southpark term of tortured baby cow.

Veal is just ridiculously inhumane.

[Odinson]

What a time to be alive, né Patch?

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/greggs-vegan-sausage-roll-steak-bake-doughnut-a9076246.html

 

 

Greggs is working on producing vegan versions of all of its best-selling products following the success of its meat-free sausage roll, the bakery has announced. 

On Friday, Roger Whiteside, Greggs’ chief executive, revealed that the company’s developers have started working on vegan recipes for all of its most popular products.

While the boss refused to reveal which items will be included in the update, last month Whiteside did confirm that the bakery chain is working on a vegan doughnut. 

 

“We are working away to see if we can come up with a version of all our bestselling lines because people want vegan options,” Whiteside said in an interview with LBC to mark the launch of the bakery’s 2,000th store. 

“If we can produce something that tastes just as good as the meat version, then that will sell very successfully. That’s what’s been shown with the vegan sausage roll.”

[Patchelicious]

I prefer the Southpark term of tortured baby cow.

Veal is just ridiculously inhumane.

Well according to veganist principles, surely veal is more humane?

The animal doesnt need to live in terrible conditions for a long time?

Edited August 23, 2019 by Patchelicious

[Odinson]

Would like to hear some opinions: can capitalism help create a vegan world or are corporations, built on animal exploitation, simply and cynically cashing in on the vegan boom to bolster their bottom line? 

 

 

 

Sorry vegans, you can't just spend your way to paradise – so don't let Taylor Swift tell you otherwise

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/vegan-fashion-taylor-swift-burger-king-kfc-ethical-consumerism-a9073361.html?fbclid=IwAR0DJg2-dMEgTDngwRHaoQXHLocy1cSXQt37GK15m2AcJOMMLuwQ17gMgL4

[Eldron]

I prefer the Southpark term of tortured baby cow.

Veal is just ridiculously inhumane.

 

This post is great example of why I struggle to understand the push back against vegetarians/vegans. All of us are on the animals-vegan scale...some closer to the carnivore section and some all the way over on the vegan end.

 

Some love meat and don't give a hoot about the suffering of animals or the environmental impact.

 

Some love beef but won't eat veal. Some eat veal but won't eat foie gras. Some eat foie gras but won't eat cat or dog.

 

Vegans/vegetarians are not some "other" - it's just easier for lazy people who feel instead of think to label anyone who doesn't match their world view as an "other".

[Eldron]

Another fun irony is the world reaction to the fires in the amazon.

 

Everybody is united in their sympathy for the animals suffering in the fires. Then they go and kill and eat animals.

[Rocket-Boy]

This post is great example of why I struggle to understand the push back against vegetarians/vegans. All of us are on the animals-vegan scale...some closer to the carnivore section and some all the way over on the vegan end.

 

Some love meat and don't give a hoot about the suffering of animals or the environmental impact.

 

Some love beef but won't eat veal. Some eat veal but won't eat foie gras. Some eat foie gras but won't eat cat or dog.

 

Vegans/vegetarians are not some "other" - it's just easier for lazy people who feel instead of think to label anyone who doesn't match their world view as an "other".

 

Yeah humans and their distinctions on what is right and wrong are complex things.

I went vegan for just over 2 months before dropping down to vegetarian. Being vegan is just taking things way too far in terms of inconvenience. 

 

What amazed me the most about the time I was vegan was that I didnt have the urge to tell anyone about it, that must be the reason I couldnt keep it going

 

I know the farmers personally and the lifestyle that both the eggs and milk I consume come from. Those are happy *true* free range birds/animals.

[Rocket-Boy]

Another fun irony is the world reaction to the fires in the amazon.

 

Everybody is united in their sympathy for the animals suffering in the fires. Then they go and kill and eat animals.

I think its the horror of thinking about all of those terrified animals being burnt to death, probably the worst way to go.

Sure there is sometimes terror and extended terror at that for cows and other domesticated animals on route to slaughter, but that doesnt strike the same accord with people as being burnt to death.

[Odinson]

Another fun irony is the world reaction to the fires in the amazon.

 

Everybody is united in their sympathy for the animals suffering in the fires. Then they go and kill and eat animals.

 

It's also the disassociation. You can just be outraged about what's happening in the Amazon. You don't need to do anything. However, if you want to apply that same concern to other animals, irrespective of their locale or species, you'll need to take action. Thus, stop eating animals. That turns into a very different proposition.