The Veganism Thread

[Chris_]

Tell that to the people that will consume these 60 000 sheep. They dont care for emotional statements.

 

Stop supporting the industry, stop supporting the mechanism that allows and benefits from this, stop making this behavior acceptable to the world. Tangible things you and I can do which makes a difference.

[IceCreamMan]

Funny how clear cut the courses of action are on Veganism...like make the decision , make it happen.

 

Why is that same call to action so difficult to understand in the other thread?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Funny how clear cut the courses of action are on Veganism...like make the decision , make it happen.

 

Why is that same call to action so difficult to understand in the other thread?

Because of where the decision to cut out comes. 

 

Power gen: We can't decide which power to use unless we spend oodles on an off-the-grid setup. 

Pollution: All we can police are ourselves

CO2 production: Same

 

Gov't and industry are far more well poised to enact extreme change in these areas than we ourselves are, and the Kyoto protocol, Paris accord and the various other pieces of legislation that the Trumpasaurus is lowering his lance at are evidence of this. Sure, we can place pressure to change policy, but we can't change where our power / fuel etc comes from. We CAN change what type of food we purchase, if it's within the same budgetary constraints and of the same availability. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Wayne Potgieter]

Just watched The Game Changers.

 

Highly recommend.

[Chris_]

Because of where the decision to cut out comes. 

 

Power gen: We can't decide which power to use unless we spend oodles on an off-the-grid setup. 

Pollution: All we can police are ourselves

CO2 production: Same

 

Gov't and industry are far more well poised to enact extreme change in these areas than we ourselves are, and the Kyoto protocol, Paris accord and the various other pieces of legislation that the Trumpasaurus is lowering his lance at are evidence of this. Sure, we can place pressure to change policy, but we can't change where our power / fuel etc comes from. We CAN change what type of food we purchase, if it's within the same budgetary constraints and of the same availability. 

 

This is why I'm impressed by the vegan movement, its a group of stand-up-to-norms-society radicals (to be fair) that found a problem, did their homework, and acted. Full stop. Actually changed their life. And as it turns out, have created a world where it is much easier to thrive under such ideals through change that they individually have created.

 

Keeping with the same theme - if power is an important issue to you, do your homework. What brands do you support? How do they stack up on ... ESG lists, sourcing their own green/sustainable power sources, pioneering new methods of production line or product? How do you live, how do you commute, how do you .. I don't know what else, but how do you tacitly sustain old dirty industry (hmm) and how do you support newer initiatives?

 

You yourself can't change where the power comes from but you can change your individual world to benefit better sources, and consequently weaken those targeted others. And as we have seen with the former, it actually does hinder the 'bad' businesses.

 

(PS This is not really an argument at you, more idea crossover thoughts, I agree govt needs to be on board to make quicker (key word) progress, but I also wasn't sure if you just threw your hands up in the air at the end of your post or not)

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

100% agreed, CBlake. I'm not throwing my hands up in the air at all, but at the same time I am extremely budget conscious so the "better" choice isn't always a viable option. But. I do my bit, too. Recycle as much as I can, don't purchase a replacement for something I can fix, drive a 10yo TDI van that uses two thirds of the fuel my Audi used to, use the train when I can, walk when I can and shortly will have a 35yo Moto which will reduce consumption, too (by way of spending less actual time commuting, when I don't work from home: another saving)

 

Geyser is off most of the time (takes 30 min to heat up to temp) and so on.

 

So no, not throwing my hands up at all. I enjoy eating meat, but that doesn't mean I'm not conscious of what other things I do.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Odinson]

100% agreed, CBlake. I'm not throwing my hands up in the air at all, but at the same time I am extremely budget conscious so the "better" choice isn't always a viable option. But. I do my bit, too. Recycle as much as I can, don't purchase a replacement for something I can fix, drive a 10yo TDI van that uses two thirds of the fuel my Audi used to, use the train when I can, walk when I can and shortly will have a 35yo Moto which will reduce consumption, too (by way of spending less actual time commuting, when I don't work from home: another saving)

 

Geyser is off most of the time (takes 30 min to heat up to temp) and so on.

 

So no, not throwing my hands up at all. I enjoy eating meat, but that doesn't mean I'm not conscious of what other things I do.

 

Myles, a sincere question and not one which is meant to be confrontational. If we know that a plant-based diet is the most environmentally impactful, why not adopt it? Is it a case of caring enough to do other things, just not enough to do that? 

 

This question isn't specifically directed at you, but you raised the position of enacting other mitigation tactics, just not willing to adopt a plant-based diet, so I figured you'd have thought this over. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Myles, a sincere question and not one which is meant to be confrontational. If we know that a plant-based diet is the most environmentally impactful, why not adopt it? Is it a case of caring enough to do other things, just not enough to do that? 

 

This question isn't specifically directed at you, but you raised the position of enacting other mitigation tactics, just not willing to adopt a plant-based diet, so I figured you'd have thought this over. 

Honestly, I think it comes down to the same thing that Jim Jefferies says is the only acceptable reason for not wanting gun control: "I like guns"

 

I love the way meat tastes, I love the texture, I love the variation, I love the way that it satiates my appetite and provides fuel for my body, in addition to all the other foods I consume. 

 

I'm fully aware of where my food comes from, have butchered a couple of animals myself and accept that humans are omnivorous, predatory mammals that need adequate sources of protein to survive. I'm also comfortable with how I perceive different animals as food vs companion. But that doesn't mean I don't view those animals as sentient, feeling beings. I'm just comfortable with them being part of my diet because, well, they are. If I wasn't, they wouldn't be. 

 

I also fully back the attempts to synthesise meat, and absolutely believe that at some point in the future, meat replacements will be sufficiently advanced so that you cannot differentiate between a pukka fillet, and a synthesized one. 

 

I have reduced, but not ceased my meat consumption. But I have not gone for meat replacements as I find them excessively lacking in taste compared to the "real thing", or so prohibitively expensive that eating them isn't an option. 

 

In short: I like it, and it likes me. Will I get to a point in the future where I have a change of heart, and suddenly decide not to? Possibly. That point will likely be on the brink of the time described above. But it'll more likely be an incremental change, so that by the time that point comes, I've already transitioned over as I've found the experience acceptable as an absolute replacement.  

[Chris_]

..... predatory mammals ....

 

Not to detract but I laughed out loud at this. Looking at the state of humans around me there's not a lot of predator left... haha

[Odinson]

Thanks for not waffling or skirting the real justification: you do it because you enjoy it. 

 

Do you think that your enjoyment morally justifies the exploitation and killing of animals? This kind of thinking is problematic to me. Would I be morally justified in groping a random woman's breasts because it gives me pleasure or would we agree that harming another sentient being for our own pleasure is immoral? 

 

Regarding the 'sources of protein' meat, aquaculture, eggs, and dairy use ~83% of the world’s farmland and contribute 56 to 58% of food’s different emissions, despite providing only 37% of our protein and 18% of our calories. So, that's basically smoking cigarettes for fresh air. We can get all essential amino acids from plant sources. 

 

I'm totally onboard with clean meat and its potential, but we can't use its absence as a moral justification for what we're doing to animals now. 

 

This isn't meant to be a personal attack, but the position you take is one of egoism. Your desires trounce those of animals who suffer for your pleasure.

 

Don't we denounce racism and sexism because we understand that it is unreasonable. So too we must denounce speciesim - it is wrong to treat other species immorally purely because they are of a different species. 

 

Veganism simply asks to afford all animals, not just those in the food system, basic consideration. 

[Edition 507]

* you're

Spotted that too.

[Odinson]

It's World Vegetarianism Day today! Keep it veggie, everyone. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Thanks for not waffling or skirting the real justification: you do it because you enjoy it. 

 

Do you think that your enjoyment morally justifies the exploitation and killing of animals? This kind of thinking is problematic to me. Would I be morally justified in groping a random woman's breasts because it gives me pleasure or would we agree that harming another sentient being for our own pleasure is immoral? 

 

Regarding the 'sources of protein' meat, aquaculture, eggs, and dairy use ~83% of the world’s farmland and contribute 56 to 58% of food’s different emissions, despite providing only 37% of our protein and 18% of our calories. So, that's basically smoking cigarettes for fresh air. We can get all essential amino acids from plant sources. 

 

I'm totally onboard with clean meat and its potential, but we can't use its absence as a moral justification for what we're doing to animals now. 

 

This isn't meant to be a personal attack, but the position you take is one of egoism. Your desires trounce those of animals who suffer for your pleasure.

 

Don't we denounce racism and sexism because we understand that it is unreasonable. So too we must denounce speciesim - it is wrong to treat other species immorally purely because they are of a different species. 

 

Veganism simply asks to afford all animals, not just those in the food system, basic consideration. 

Exactly - you attune all animals to the same degree of compassion. I don't. Well, actually I do, but only some. I find dogs to be far more humane than most humans, and cats to be the middle-managers of the world. As in they tend to do things that end up pretty destructive, but want your praise and believe themselves to be the rule and the law. Talking about cats, there, in case you're wondering. 

 

Also - please don't put those false equivalencies in there. Rape, racism or sexual assault are NOT the same as eating meat / animal products. You're more intelligent than that, and it's something that you do, continually. It's an intellectually dishonest approach, and one that does not garner respect. 

 

Mistreatment: Yes. Diabolocal conditions: Yes. Unethical treatment: Yes. On board for all of those, as I believe that an animal (even if it is one that is destined for the table) should be treated respectfully and with care. You can even taste and feel the difference in the meat, if a cow / sow is traumatised at the time of death. 

 

We as a species put the needs of our own above those of the animals not of our species. It's clearly evident across the animal kingdom. You place them all on the same level as us. And that's fine, for you. Don't tell me I MUST do the same, when they're not of my species. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

It's World Vegetarianism Day today! Keep it veggie, everyone. 

Already failed with the 2 coffees (full cream milk) and the chicken breast I've just had, unfortunately. 

 

What's left in my fridge and freezer? Solely veg, except for last night's bolognaise and the milk for my coffee / tea. Oh, and cheese & eggs. Staples, those. 

 

But - as I said previously. My meat consumption has gone down, primarily due to budget, but also 'cos I like veggies, too. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[IceCreamMan]

Thanks for not waffling or skirting the real justification: you do it because you enjoy it. 

 

Do you think that your enjoyment morally justifies the exploitation and killing of animals? This kind of thinking is problematic to me. Would I be morally justified in groping a random woman's breasts because it gives me pleasure or would we agree that harming another sentient being for our own pleasure is immoral? 

 

Regarding the 'sources of protein' meat, aquaculture, eggs, and dairy use ~83% of the world’s farmland and contribute 56 to 58% of food’s different emissions, despite providing only 37% of our protein and 18% of our calories. So, that's basically smoking cigarettes for fresh air. We can get all essential amino acids from plant sources. 

 

I'm totally onboard with clean meat and its potential, but we can't use its absence as a moral justification for what we're doing to animals now. 

 

This isn't meant to be a personal attack, but the position you take is one of egoism. Your desires trounce those of animals who suffer for your pleasure.

 

Don't we denounce racism and sexism because we understand that it is unreasonable. So too we must denounce speciesim - it is wrong to treat other species immorally purely because they are of a different species. 

 

Veganism simply asks to afford all animals, not just those in the food system, basic consideration. 

 

Well constructed point.

 

The premise being that animals are the same as humans.

[Edition 507]

Thanks for not waffling or skirting the real justification: you do it because you enjoy it. 

 

Do you think that your enjoyment morally justifies the exploitation and killing of animals? This kind of thinking is problematic to me. Would I be morally justified in groping a random woman's breasts because it gives me pleasure or would we agree that harming another sentient being for our own pleasure is immoral? 

 

Regarding the 'sources of protein' meat, aquaculture, eggs, and dairy use ~83% of the world’s farmland and contribute 56 to 58% of food’s different emissions, despite providing only 37% of our protein and 18% of our calories. So, that's basically smoking cigarettes for fresh air. We can get all essential amino acids from plant sources. 

 

I'm totally onboard with clean meat and its potential, but we can't use its absence as a moral justification for what we're doing to animals now. 

 

This isn't meant to be a personal attack, but the position you take is one of egoism. Your desires trounce those of animals who suffer for your pleasure.

 

Don't we denounce racism and sexism because we understand that it is unreasonable. So too we must denounce speciesim - it is wrong to treat other species immorally purely because they are of a different species. 

 

Veganism simply asks to afford all animals, not just those in the food system, basic consideration. 

Pathetic argument, full of thumb sucked stats and lies. Groping a woman’s t1ts equals eating a burger? WTF? This sense of morality is quite malformed.