The Veganism Thread

[Pieter1]

Sacked vegan claims discrimination in landmark case

 

A landmark tribunal will decide whether veganism is a "philosophical belief" akin to a religion.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46385597

I think he is fired because he spilled the beans not because he is a vegan. Or am I missing something?

[Milkman]

I would have to disagree. 

 

Most third world countries have diets centered around getting the majority of their caloric intake from plant foods. Reaching your daily targets on a plant-based diet is very easy and does not require $$$. Have a look at this pretty bare bones 1-day meals I put into Cronometer. Pretty cool, right? 

 

Meal 1 day.PNG

 

As I mentioned before, many folks see veganism as 'restrictive' as they look at it through the lens of how easily they can access pre-made meals, whether it's a fancy(ish) Woolies pasta or a garage pie. In that sense, it could be more difficult, but if you want to eat for health and to prosper, you'll avoid those types of rubbish foods anyway. 

 

On the whole taste aspect, I'd say reserve judgment until you've tasted some of the options like Beyond Meats and the Impossible Burger. It's eerily similar in smell, taste and texture. 

 

 

If you read my statement again , you will see that I said going vegan by "choice " is very much a 1st world thing !

Yes there are a lot of countries where people follow a vegan diet , but it is mostly out of necessity .  Same thing here in South Africa ; people eat what is readily available and affordable  !!

It is very easy when you live in a first world country to loose perspective of what really goes on in the 3rd world countries . Even in Hindu countries like India where people try and not kill animals for religious reasons they only have around a 30% vegetarian ( never mind vegan )  population- and they are way more motivated to not eat meat than your typical Westerner .

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122

 

I suppose in a way it's the same as people that wants everything "organic" . It all sounds very romantic and great , but it is a bit naive to think the whole world can do that . There are just too many people in the world that has to be fed for very little money .

[GrahamS2]

If you read my statement again , you will see that my point was not about individual people ( including myself ) but more "for the masses " . I might have the means to go and shop for the latest nice spice and fresh veggies , but 80% of our country might not ? 

95% of the world eats meat for a reason. It's a cheap, easy protein source. Even something as basic as the synthetic B12 supplements one would need to take as a vegan are beyond the affordability of a large percentage of Africa's population. Or India's. Or China's...

Edited December 4, 2018 by GrahamS2

[Odinson]

95% of the world eats meat for a reason. It's a cheap, easy protein source. Even something as basic as the synthetic B12 supplements one would need to take as a vegan are beyond the affordability of a large percentage of Africa's population. Or India's. Or China's...

 

That 95% eat meat because it oftentimes made artificially cheap through subsidies and other methods. Strip those away and we'll see the real price.

 

There's so much more nuance to this. What's the point of reaching protein targets, but then you have populations that are either under-or over nourished and riddled with chronic illnesses? You end up with governments providing subsidies to make meat cheap, but you also have skyrocketing public healthcare costs.  

[Chris_]

Do you believe this is by choice?

 

I think I know where you're going with this comment but I'll point it in a different direction.

 

Theres a book called The China Study. It documented the rise in middle class wealth in China and consequent rise in animal product consumption (as this is seen as a luxury food and therefore aspirational), and at the same time measured changes in various health issues.

 

The conclusion was pretty broad, because you have to take into account the clear rise in processed foods - whether one is a consequence of the other or not, medical gains, lifestyles, etc, (its just a huge book of data so if you want to poke holes in it you can really interpret it any way you like), but the link between moving away from plant based - as was prevalent in the 'old' days, to the increase in animal product consumption nowadays, and the subsequent rise in health problems - cancers, heart issues, is compelling.

[Gen]

I was driving behind horse trailers and thought I would ask what vegans views are on equesteian sport.

[Milkman]

I think I know where you're going with this comment but I'll point it in a different direction.

 

Theres a book called The China Study. It documented the rise in middle class wealth in China and consequent rise in animal product consumption (as this is seen as a luxury food and therefore aspirational), and at the same time measured changes in various health issues.

 

The conclusion was pretty broad, because you have to take into account the clear rise in processed foods - whether one is a consequence of the other or not, medical gains, lifestyles, etc, (its just a huge book of data so if you want to poke holes in it you can really interpret it any way you like), but the link between moving away from plant based - as was prevalent in the 'old' days, to the increase in animal product consumption nowadays, and the subsequent rise in health problems - cancers, heart issues, is compelling.

I don’t think anybody here disputes the fact that living on a mostly high fat deep fried processed food diet is bad for you ?!

Everything in moderation of course.

 

I don’t wanna answer for Patch here , but seeing that he was quoting me in his question I will elaborate on my statement once again ;

We live in a world where a big part of the population are struggling to find a means to have a healthy meal . Here in SA I think our problem is more an obesity problem ( I don’t have the facts , but can speculate it’s too much carbs ? ) and in other parts of the world it’s the opposite- famine . But almost all of the problems are because of economics .

It’s actually *** expensive to eat healthy in 3rd world countries .

 

So , until healthy food is within reach of the masses ( which unfortunately I don’t think will ever happen ) I stand by what I said : to be vegan by choice is very much a 1st world thing .

Edited December 4, 2018 by Milkman

[Patchelicious]

I think I know where you're going with this comment but I'll point it in a different direction.

 

Theres a book called The China Study. It documented the rise in middle class wealth in China and consequent rise in animal product consumption (as this is seen as a luxury food and therefore aspirational), and at the same time measured changes in various health issues.

 

The conclusion was pretty broad, because you have to take into account the clear rise in processed foods - whether one is a consequence of the other or not, medical gains, lifestyles, etc, (its just a huge book of data so if you want to poke holes in it you can really interpret it any way you like), but the link between moving away from plant based - as was prevalent in the 'old' days, to the increase in animal product consumption nowadays, and the subsequent rise in health problems - cancers, heart issues, is compelling.

I had no directional intention, I asked a question. 

 

Many people simply are not in a position to choose what they eat, they eat what they can. Its not a counter Veganism argument at all, its merely an observation. As the number of people living in absolute poverty reduces, hopefully more people will have the opportunity to choose morals over hunger. 

[Chris_]

I don’t think anybody here disputes the fact that living on a mostly high fat deep fried processed food diet is bad for you ?!

Everything in moderation of course.

 

I don’t wanna answer for Patch here , but seeing that he was quoting me in his question I will elaborate on my statement once again ;

We live in a world where a big part of the population are struggling to find a means to have a healthy meal . Here in SA I think our problem is more an obesity problem ( I don’t have the facts , but can speculate it’s too much carbs ? ) and in other parts of the world it’s the opposite- famine . But almost all of the problems are because of economics .

It’s actually *** expensive to eat healthy in 3rd world countries .

 

So , until healthy food is within reach of the masses ( which unfortunately I don’t think will ever happen ) I stand by what I said : to be vegan by choice is very much a 1st world thing .

 

I understand the points you've been raising. And I actually agree. But I also think we're overlapping arguments at times here. 

 

I agree its very difficult, even as a top percentile, to go out and find food that suits restrictive diets. Because we're stuck in a certain 'what food looks like' mindset. But I also know that (and this is not a jab at you) but its very easy to find reason to complain and give up, rather than make an effort and make it work. We (personally) found that cutting out meat has been a challenge under normal life, but once we apply our minds and pots and pans it can actually work.

 

The angle I though Patch was taking was one of poverty. Thats a different problem. I think thats more education related ito food choices. Obesity like you say, nutrition, disease, maybe 'the masses' don't know these things from a bar of soap. Perhaps the cost of healthy food isn't the problem for the people but knowledge of such is. (?)

[Thor Buttox]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/bringing-home-the-bacon-offensive-to-vegans/news-story/8980653eddd9d27919024b6489c10f07

 

When you know a good thing has gone too far again, sadly.

[Patchelicious]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/bringing-home-the-bacon-offensive-to-vegans/news-story/8980653eddd9d27919024b6489c10f07

 

When you know a good thing has gone too far again, sadly.

 

Religionists: Bad ideas that ruined good people.

Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea.

[Eldron]

Bottom line time.

 

The fact that a reduced meat diet is good for the planet is pretty clear. Anyone with children should already be looking for ways to lessen their impact on the planet. Eating less meat is one of the beat/easiest ways to achieve that.

 

The gung ho I'm an uberman because I eat lots of meat line is a little like showing your little Johnny/Julie the middle finger.

[Odinson]

Religionists: Bad ideas that ruined good people.

Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea.

 

Millions of chilled vegans: *crickets*

Handful of attention-seekers: "Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea."

 

[Patchelicious]

Millions of chilled vegans: *crickets*

Handful of attention-seekers: "Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea."

 

Unfortunately its always the morons who are the loudest.

 

Those millions of chilled vegans are the cool ones, but if you want applause for being normal you likely wont get. The ones in that article, the Veganists, are a problem. Surely we can agree on that.

[Odinson]

Unfortunately its always the morons who are the loudest.

 

Those millions of chilled vegans are the cool ones, but if you want applause for being normal you likely wont get. The ones in that article, the Veganists, are a problem. Surely we can agree on that.

 

I do. Like any collection of humans united under a common purpose, there are those that are going to 'ruin' it by saying/doing stoopid ****. That's human nature. 

 

Veganism is (un)fortunately* in the position where it has now become part of the mainstream social consciousness in many parts of the world, so much so that outlets know that readers love vegans saying controversial things. Equally guilty are the people who say this crap, just to get their 15min. 

 

For me, I'm not too fazed by these attention-seeking ultra-PC outliers. I'm just going to do my thing. 

 

*read it as per your view

Edited December 4, 2018 by Odinson

[Milkman]

Bottom line time.

 

The fact that a reduced meat diet is good for the planet is pretty clear. Anyone with children should already be looking for ways to lessen their impact on the planet. Eating less meat is one of the beat/easiest ways to achieve that.

 

The gung ho I'm an uberman because I eat lots of meat line is a little like showing your little Johnny/Julie the middle finger.

 

 

You are 100% correct - we can all try and do a little something to leave the planet a better place when we exit than when we entered . Unfortunately it's not always possible.

 

I certainly do not have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want in their own house/lives .The only beef ( I couldn't help myself there ) I have with vegans ( and for that matter religious people and anybody else ) is if they become militant and try and enforce their ways or believes on me .

If I am sitting in a restaurant enjoying my steak and some hipster with a man bun millennial comes and spits on my steak and calls me a murderer , well , I am going to react to that - and it might not be in a very civil way .