For the aviation fans

[Lotus]

And if you thought sleeping on a flight was wise...

 

https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/woman-left-in-parked-plane-after-falling-sleep-on-flight-27352411

Wow! Flight crew have some explaining to do.

[Bateleur1]

Wow! Flight crew have some explaining to do.

 

Now that is funny 

[Bateleur1]

This is a good read ..

 

http://www.sullysullenberger.com/my-testimony-today-before-the-house-subcommittee-on-aviation/

[Bonus]

How tired do you have to be to fall asleep deeply enough not to wake up on landing and disembarking?

 

I guess if it was a light-load flight then the few fellow passengers could get off without you knowing.

[Robbie Stewart]

This is a good read ..

 

http://www.sullysullenberger.com/my-testimony-today-before-the-house-subcommittee-on-aviation/

 

Thanks for this. It was a good read indeed, and apart from the obvious tragedy, and resultant investigations leading to this, I would say that this speech of Mr. Sullenberger could very well apply to most parts of modern day business design, be it aircraft manufacturing, car manufacturing (think Ford Kuga et al) and even medical, banking, software you name it.

 

I agree with him on the following:

 

'Dr. Nancy Leveson, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has a quote that succinctly encapsulates much of what I have learned over many years: “Human error is a symptom of a system that needs to be redesigned.”'

 

Something which has jumped at me on this article relates to him making mention of the interconnectedness of components on modern day aircraft, and the escalation of faults when something fails - could it be argued that the introduction, and increasing reliance, of glass cockpits has made the pilots less "hands-on", and more reliant on systems monitoring possible error situations, leading to an excessive workload when something goes pear-shaped? I am not poking any pilots, just curious.

[Robbie Stewart]

How tired do you have to be to fall asleep deeply enough not to wake up on landing and disembarking?

 

I guess if it was a light-load flight then the few fellow passengers could get off without you knowing.

 

I boarded a lunch time flight from Joburg to Cape Town 2 years back, and remember being so tired I fell asleep on taxi, and woke up as we passed over Ceres, only because I was snoring so loud...I felt bad for the poor folks sitting close to me...   

[Bateleur1]

Thanks for this. It was a good read indeed, and apart from the obvious tragedy, and resultant investigations leading to this, I would say that this speech of Mr. Sullenberger could very well apply to most parts of modern day business design, be it aircraft manufacturing, car manufacturing (think Ford Kuga et al) and even medical, banking, software you name it.

 

I agree with him on the following:

 

'Dr. Nancy Leveson, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has a quote that succinctly encapsulates much of what I have learned over many years: “Human error is a symptom of a system that needs to be redesigned.”'

 

Something which has jumped at me on this article relates to him making mention of the interconnectedness of components on modern day aircraft, and the escalation of faults when something fails - could it be argued that the introduction, and increasing reliance, of glass cockpits has made the pilots less "hands-on", and more reliant on systems monitoring possible error situations, leading to an excessive workload when something goes pear-shaped? I am not poking any pilots, just curious.

 

Yip the bold part you mentioned also stood out for me.

 

WRT to your question ... it has been for a long time said that modern day airline pilots are not just pilots but more system managers than pilots, which I think is true.  The problem is that with all the aircraft in the air, the days of just flying is actually long gone as it is a huge system.  And even when it just comes to flying, you will still have accidents.  I think statistics will prove that these systems are safer than the old hands on days.

 

Look at our current cars compared to what we had  years ago.  Worlds apart.

[Robbie Stewart]

Yip the bold part you mentioned also stood out for me.

 

WRT to your question ... it has been for a long time said that modern day airline pilots are not just pilots but more system managers than pilots, which I think is true.  The problem is that with all the aircraft in the air, the days of just flying is actually long gone as it is a huge system.  And even when it just comes to flying, you will still have accidents.  I think statistics will prove that these systems are safer than the old hands on days.

 

Look at our current cars compared to what we had  years ago.  Worlds apart.

 

Thanks for your answer. I agree that the advance of aircraft cockpits staying abreast with technology is an improvement in terms of managing the workload, and ultimately makes flying safer. 

 

I do think though that a lesson can be learned from the Boeing fiasco. Reliance on systems is all good and well, but over-reliance can become detrimental to the point of costing human lives if something goes wrong, as in the Lion Air and Ethiopian Air incidents.

How the consultants, designers, developers, manufacturers, testers and the management of Boeing, as well as the officials from the FAA who had to provide oversight and verification overlooked such a critical failure in system design is mind boggling to say the least. Which raises the question of whether Boeing forced the MAX to market at a pace faster than should have been allowed in order to limit the damage to the brand due to the availability of the A320 Neo? And this push to market lead to critical issues being overlooked, and if not, then the design was intentional to limit cost overruns. And all this because instead of designing a new plane from the ground up, they decided to modernize a 50 year old airframe, and put larger engines on a plane not initially designed for such.

 

 

The fix? Change the way the flight management systems handle out of bounds situations, and don't tell anyone about it.

 

The cost? 346 human lives

 

The reason? Limit financial losses to the competitor

[Lotus]

Interesting comments about SAA by Pravin Gordhan

https://www.fin24.com/Companies/Industrial/gordhan-5-reasons-behind-saas-huge-losses-20190626

 

I think the people calling for it to be closed down need to consider the Unintended Consequences of that move. It won't serve as punishment for the people who caused the problems - they've moved on and are out of reach of our anger.

 

I've met really dedicated and committed staff on SAA flights who are determined to create a great passenger experience, and people like them, and pragmatists like Gordhan, make me think this airline can be saved. Provided the ANC/government keeps out of it. Which they probably won't.

 

The action of shutting it down will lead to short term cost avoidance, but what comes after? I'm pretty sure the competitors will take up the slack, and start hiking prices both locally and domestic. I'd hate to see that happen.

[Long Wheel Base]

Interesting comments about SAA by Pravin Gordhan

https://www.fin24.com/Companies/Industrial/gordhan-5-reasons-behind-saas-huge-losses-20190626

 

I think the people calling for it to be closed down need to consider the Unintended Consequences of that move. It won't serve as punishment for the people who caused the problems - they've moved on and are out of reach of our anger.

 

I've met really dedicated and committed staff on SAA flights who are determined to create a great passenger experience, and people like them, and pragmatists like Gordhan, make me think this airline can be saved. Provided the ANC/government keeps out of it. Which they probably won't.

 

The action of shutting it down will lead to short term cost avoidance, but what comes after? I'm pretty sure the competitors will take up the slack, and start hiking prices both locally and domestic. I'd hate to see that happen.

I would love for them to privatise technical. Get rid of all the excess baggage and carry on like normal. According to the unions, technical makes money(and stories we hear from other sources confirm this) but the profit just goes into the big black hole that is corporate. 

Sure, even technical can make changes but as we stand we can't make those changes due to the same reasons Gordhan mensions. Red tape and support are just pathetic. Comair and Mango are gatvol with us and Comair is already moving work over to lufthansa. If we can sort these issues out I am sure they will gladly come back.

[Robbie Stewart]

Interesting comments about SAA by Pravin Gordhan

https://www.fin24.com/Companies/Industrial/gordhan-5-reasons-behind-saas-huge-losses-20190626

 

I think the people calling for it to be closed down need to consider the Unintended Consequences of that move. It won't serve as punishment for the people who caused the problems - they've moved on and are out of reach of our anger.

 

I've met really dedicated and committed staff on SAA flights who are determined to create a great passenger experience, and people like them, and pragmatists like Gordhan, make me think this airline can be saved. Provided the ANC/government keeps out of it. Which they probably won't.

 

The action of shutting it down will lead to short term cost avoidance, but what comes after? I'm pretty sure the competitors will take up the slack, and start hiking prices both locally and domestic. I'd hate to see that happen.

 

He says SAA has the wrong fleet. What does he propose as alternative to the current? For that matter, what would a "perfect" SAA fleet comprise?

 

If I had to hazard a guess:

 

Domestic / Regional: B737-800/900 NG (MAX obviously not an option); A320Neo?

Long Haul: B777 (probably -300ER), or possibly A350 / B787 

[Lotus]

 For that matter, what would a "perfect" SAA fleet comprise?

 

A single manufacturer (Airbus or Boeing) to optimise/rationalise maintenance and training maybe?

[Long Wheel Base]

He says SAA has the wrong fleet. What does he propose as alternative to the current? For that matter, what would a "perfect" SAA fleet comprise?

 

If I had to hazard a guess:

 

Domestic / Regional: B737-800/900 NG (MAX obviously not an option); A320Neo?

Long Haul: B777 (probably -300ER), or possibly A350 / B787 

We have A340-600s that are VERY expensive to run. We have in fact grounded 2 already and more to follow. They are simply too expensive to fly. He mentioned 737-800s, we don't have any left, Mango/Fly safair have them now so not sure why that is even in the mix. There are rumors that we are getting 2 A350s shortly. Apparently the airbus deal was full of backhands that means we will just loose loose loose.

[Long Wheel Base]

A single manufacturer (Airbus or Boeing) to optimise/rationalise maintenance and training maybe?

That is the way to go but mainly for spares. Training and maintenance we still have to be "fluent" in Boeing and Airbus because our customers fly both. We already have an Airbus only fleet. 

[Robbie Stewart]

There are rumors that we are getting 2 A350s shortly. Apparently the airbus deal was full of backhands that means we will just loose loose loose.

 

Expect a massive backlash from Joe Public if that happens. I am all for it if it means saving on maintaining the upkeep of those horrifically expensive A340-600's which are long in the tooth anyway. But I am afraid Joe Public will not see it that way.

[kosmonooit]

But surely getting newer more economical aircraft for the long hauls would make business sense, even if they are short term leased?

 

Not that decisions are being made by common business sense there or in any other SOE .. in my opinion, the abyss will just get deeper as long as BEE is the criteria for employing people and appointing contractors, which inevitably ends up in cronyism, corruption, and a host of other destructive issues.

 

I would start by frog-marching most if not all of the management on a one way trip out of the building, and start from scratch, and get the right people to do the jobs, regardless of colour, creed or gender,,

 

 

 

And besides that A350 is a lovely bird, must be a treat to fly.

Edited June 27, 2019 by kosmonooit