Why Helicopters over Drones???

[sawystertrance]

I also thought about this while watching the Dakar. Why not lock a drone onto a car, and where the car goes the drone goes? Much more footage than the 30 minute repeats. And the proper drones can calculate when they need to return to base when the battery runs out. 

 

Same as the drones. Surely if the race is in moerlandspan, getting authorization to fly below 150 meters can not be that difficult?  

Judging by my GoPro videos, 90% of the recording would be boring and discarded so I think that option wouldn't be viable. Mind you, I suppose the same is true of footage from a chopper. 

[DieselnDust]

Judging by my GoPro videos, 90% of the recording would be boring and discarded so I think that option wouldn't be viable. Mind you, I suppose the same is true of footage from a chopper.

 

Wasted footage can be reduced by having a pilot and camera man operating the drone. The pilot flies fpv and the camera man directs the pilot where to go.

Obviously this is much easier with a manned helicopter

[sawystertrance]

But how can you shoot footage in anticipation of what is going to happen? You're either going to miss unexpected events, catch some by chance, or shoot wasted footage, same as unmanned drone.

[DieselnDust]

But how can you shoot footage in anticipation of what is going to happen? You're either going to miss unexpected events, catch some by chance, or shoot wasted footage, same as unmanned drone.

 

 

I've hung around with camera crews at the Epic and other stage races and asked them this very question. Yes they do have wasted footage but some of it is live feed via livestreaming or livestream from the e-bike. So its not really wasted except for the highlights edit. There will always be wastage to generate that. But if highlights don;t show the exciting stuff you can only imagine how many hours of boring footage they have....

They just have a lot less wastage when they're in the chopper because they have a better view of where the action is likely to take place. So yes their anticipation is much better.

They also miss a lot of action but you' don't see that because it was never filmed so it didn't happen....

In short they just have much more director capacity in the chopper due to the better overall view.

To achieve the same with a drone they would need a drone with multiple camera that have excellent zoom capability plus wide angle capability. That's a lot of weight.

A go pro on a small drone has its uses and they use them. They're simply not a replacement for a manned helicopter yet. These are the challenges.

 

Swarms of drones will obviously produce a safetly risk to the riders and spectators. Collision avoidance is pretty good but the computing power is limited so the drones collision avoidance maxes out on computing capacity when you have 4 or 5 of them in close proximity, a high speed criss crossing each others flight path. More powerful sensors require better cooling and computing power. That's more weight.

 

Anyway I'm glad someone raised the topic because I started thinking about the problem three years ago and went quite far down the road with the concept design. A big challenge is the size this thing needs to be to fulfill the film crews requirements. These requirements essentially lead to an unmanned aircraft not too far off the size of current military UAV's. The licensing and airframe certification are huge financial hurdles. Basically, you're better off buying a DENEL Dynamics SEEKER in non military spec. It's STOL so could probably operate around the race village. Yes its an old design but its proven, certified , licensed and fairly cheap compared to more modern airframes. and can carry a wide variety of equipment. Loiter time is also ideal t nearly two hours. With a reduced payload that can probably be extended and this allows fitting of an extra fuel tank.

 

Once battery's are lighter and have higher capacity then maybe a quad copter style drone becomes viable.

 

I have an alternative solution I'm working on...

[MarcBurger]

Also, you can't fit emergency paramedics or things like that in a drone. Some events require a few EMTs flying around with the camera crews.

[Shebeen]

I worked on UAVs in the mid 2000s for a commercial application, all of the good technology (ie. stuff that actually worked) was military and being military there was never any trickle down/collaboration between projects.

All of that has changed now. I think it is a case of not if, but when.

 

I present exhibit A: Volvo ocean race who have embraced drone footage with onboard media operating them. 

 

 

they still do use choppers, but you can see that the drone is replacing a lot of it already

[Eddy Gordo]

Also, you can't fit emergency paramedics or things like that in a drone. Some events require a few EMTs flying around with the camera crews.

I think this is the key point. Many times that chopper landed so that medics could  tend to people. It happens live, how long before a medic can get onto location after the incident?

[Dadbod Racing]

All this mention of Helicopters and Drones and only one mention of Airwolf? (thanks for the trip down memory lane BTW ) 

 

How did nobody mention Skatterjag? That's what my Sunday afternoons were made of, watching Scot Scott (his name is so nice you must say it twice) radio Melanie to find out where she is.....

 

Sorry for the hijack

[DieselnDust]

I worked on UAVs in the mid 2000s for a commercial application, all of the good technology (ie. stuff that actually worked) was military and being military there was never any trickle down/collaboration between projects.

All of that has changed now. I think it is a case of not if, but when.

 

I present exhibit A: Volvo ocean race who have embraced drone footage with onboard media operating them. 

 

 

they still do use choppers, but you can see that the drone is replacing a lot of it already

 

damn nice footage! This footage is very achievable by any modern R10k -R25K drone. 

 

Team Emirates New Zealand used a Drone to film Aeoteroa during sea trials back in NZ. THey used the footage to monitor foil stability to ensure they were trimming the cat correctly. That drone needed high speed to catch  up and it did. In fact a lot of the aerial footage during the 35th America's Cup was filmed using drones. Many of them. They didn't need range nor required to operate beyond visual range though.

 

Hence for now a drone won't meet the requirements of replacing the chopper for filming a mtb Stage of the Epic.

 

It is a question of when. But will an electric helicopter make the drone superfluous.

 

The big question is, what is the drone offering that the helicopter can't? 

For the Americas Cup the drones didn't interfere with the sailing by influencing the sails of the boats. Same reason ETNZ didn't use a helicopter to film their boat in trials.

At this point all a drone offers is weather flight capability and low cost but many are required and hence maybe operation cost of a fleet of drones is not lower than for a chopper? Only a military drone can do that and those boys don't like to share their toys.

[ajnkzn]

Thanks for all the replies - stirred up a hornet's nest haha.

 

Not sure if all replies took into account what I said about having multiple pilots and drones that are static at various points and they each provide footage of one climb / descent or point of interest.

 

Watching some of the footage, I am AMAZED at the skill of the heli pilots and also terrified at how close the rotors sometimes seem to get to the riders.

[bertusras]

It is a question of when. But will an electric helicopter make the drone superfluous.

 

Not until the energy density of batteries increase dramatically.

 

Diesel has an energy density of approximately 34.92MJ/lt, which is near as makes no difference 42MJ/kg. Lithium Ion batteries on the other hand have an energy density of 0.36–0.875MJ/kg. 

 

There is literally about a hundred times more energy in a kilogram of Diesel than there is in a kilogram of battery.

[DieselnDust]

Not until the energy density of batteries increase dramatically.

 

Diesel has an energy density of approximately 34.92MJ/lt, which is near as makes no difference 42MJ/kg. Lithium Ion batteries on the other hand have an energy density of 0.36–0.875MJ/kg. 

 

There is literally about a hundred times more energy in a kilogram of Diesel than there is in a kilogram of battery.

 

 

Bingo!

and petrol/Avgas has a higher energy density still. So a drone operating on avgas makes sense

[Shebeen]

Not until the energy density of batteries increase dramatically.

 

Diesel has an energy density of approximately 34.92MJ/lt, which is near as makes no difference 42MJ/kg. Lithium Ion batteries on the other hand have an energy density of 0.36–0.875MJ/kg. 

 

There is literally about a hundred times more energy in a kilogram of Diesel than there is in a kilogram of battery.

 

 

oooh, I do like numbers:

surely we should be looking at power produced per kg?

 

internal combustion engines are quite inefficient, I'm guessing a helicopter would also be a poor form of flight too. my random internet check is that an IC engine is 20-40% efficient

 

a brushless motor on the other hand is 70-90% efficient.

 

That brings the numbers a bit closer together.

and then the actual weight of the motors needs to be considered too.

and you'd actually need batteries to run the IC engine/controls anyway.

 

I don't think it's a given that an IC drone is going to be the frontrunner forever.

[DieselnDust]

Thanks for all the replies - stirred up a hornet's nest haha.

 

Not sure if all replies took into account what I said about having multiple pilots and drones that are static at various points and they each provide footage of one climb / descent or point of interest.

 

Watching some of the footage, I am AMAZED at the skill of the heli pilots and also terrified at how close the rotors sometimes seem to get to the riders.

 

 

Not a hornets nest. Sorry you see it that way. Like I said I asked the same question three years ago and am sharing what I learned about why the helicopter is still preferred and will be for a while. Hopefully you don't see this as obstructive to what you are looking for from the discussion.

Sure multiple drones can work. But how many are you planning on using? 1 every 2km? So lets say roughly 50 drones and operators. Remember they have to operate within visual range of the pilot. Not FPV. If FPV then there needs to a be separate camera operator. These are legal requirements for commercial drone operators. So this then requires a fixed placement for the operator crew to film mayb 1km of footage. The drone is almost invisible at 200m.

 

Then the additional editing time for the film crew splicing 50 units footage together. The number of cameras goes up from 5 or 6 to 50-60, roughty x10 different device uploads that needs to be sequenced in chronological order before editing even starts. It may be highly impractical to do this within the time limits they have.

 

Operating in this manner around an XCO  course will work nicely. Over a 100km marathon course...?

Its possible but the challenges are still bigger than a chopper with a few strategically placed drones as they currently do.

We must remember the guys at Big Shot Media are operating to a budget and against a time constraint. They need to have a highlights package out by 7pm for Supersport approval to air at 10h30 every night.

They need all the footage they have by around 1-2pm every day to allow of review and editing. They have to try and tell a story as well as provide factual information that illustrates the days racing. They don't just want to use cool equipment. The tech they use needs to make their work easier to allow them tell a better story. That's their function. 

 

So not knocking your ideas, just hopefully giving insight into the problems that need to be solved.

[DieselnDust]

oooh, I do like numbers:

surely we should be looking at power produced per kg?

 

internal combustion engines are quite inefficient, I'm guessing a helicopter would also be a poor form of flight too. my random internet check is that an IC engine is 20-40% efficient

 

a brushless motor on the other hand is 70-90% efficient.

 

That brings the numbers a bit closer together.

and then the actual weight of the motors needs to be considered too.

and you'd actually need batteries to run the IC engine/controls anyway.

 

I don't think it's a given that an IC drone is going to be the frontrunner forever.

 

 

No it won't and you're 100% correct. Energy density is one part of the problem but power to weight does still favour the ICE with petrol.

Higher energy density batteries are needed to surpass the ICE in a rotary wing application but the pioneering airframes are there. PTW is one part of the problem but energy density is what helps to determine range and range is key. Ten to twenty minute flights just won't cut it. Sixty minutes is what will get the aviation market excited especially when replacing a Robin R-44 for camera duty. Lighter electric motors are not so easy because to improve the efficiency and torque we need stronger magnets and those are heavier. Remember a ICE vehicle gets lighter whilst an electric one gets heavier the longer it flies. Yes not actually weight but power to weight reduces in flight for electrics whilst it increases for an ICE aircraft.

There is a tipping point. I don't know where it is currently (pun intended)

[ajnkzn]

Not a hornets nest. Sorry you see it that way. Like I said I asked the same question three years ago and am sharing what I learned about why the helicopter is still preferred and will be for a while. Hopefully you don't see this as obstructive to what you are looking for from the discussion.

Sure multiple drones can work. But how many are you planning on using? 1 every 2km? So lets say roughly 50 drones and operators. Remember they have to operate within visual range of the pilot. Not FPV. If FPV then there needs to a be separate camera operator. These are legal requirements for commercial drone operators. So this then requires a fixed placement for the operator crew to film mayb 1km of footage. The drone is almost invisible at 200m.

 

Then the additional editing time for the film crew splicing 50 units footage together. The number of cameras goes up from 5 or 6 to 50-60, roughty x10 different device uploads that needs to be sequenced in chronological order before editing even starts. It may be highly impractical to do this within the time limits they have.

 

Operating in this manner around an XCO  course will work nicely. Over a 100km marathon course...?

Its possible but the challenges are still bigger than a chopper with a few strategically placed drones as they currently do.

We must remember the guys at Big Shot Media are operating to a budget and against a time constraint. They need to have a highlights package out by 7pm for Supersport approval to air at 10h30 every night.

They need all the footage they have by around 1-2pm every day to allow of review and editing. They have to try and tell a story as well as provide factual information that illustrates the days racing. They don't just want to use cool equipment. The tech they use needs to make their work easier to allow them tell a better story. That's their function. 

 

So not knocking your ideas, just hopefully giving insight into the problems that need to be solved.

 

 

Thanks for the detailed answer - interesting!