The Abortion Issue

[Robbie Stewart]

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what you're even saying.

 

Each book in the Bible is written by a man based upon accounts of life in that period. Unless I missed that part where your god sat down and wrote some stuff and magicked it onto some stone tablet.

 

These parchments and stones and bits of clay were collected by men, translated (potential interpretation issues there), collatted over time, omitting some... And then you have your Bible.

 

My point I am trying to make is that even if men wrote the bible, as you say, surely the authors of the book who decided to compile it, had the final say to what is included and not? 

 

Would it be logical to tell Homer that you found some manuscripts that in some way sound like it should have been included in his Iliad? Would Homer not laugh you off, and publish his book as he saw fit?

 

Essentially, regardless of authorship, you don't get to decide what should, or should not be included in a book if you are neither the author, editor or publisher, hence if you "find" some book you think should be included, you would be wrong.

[Stretch]

I have a question for you on this topic.

 

Historians and archaeologists are in agreement that the Historical Jesus was a real man, who lived in the time and space as portrayed by the Bible. Forget for a minute what I, personally, believe about Him.

 

Lets just talk about the reason for being willing to die on a cross. Why? What possible reason did He have to hand Himself over to be killed on a cross, even after being declared innocent by Pontius Pilate? What did He stand to gain by being crucified?

I don't deny for one minute that Jesus existed. He was likely a prophet that was popular at the time. The world is full of examples of powerful orators who can sway peoples thinking through speech and actions.

 

There are thousands of accounts of People who have sacrificed themselves for things they believe are a good reason. Some are incredible valid and Noble... Some are outright lunatics

[Stretch]

My point I am trying to make is that even if men wrote the bible, as you say, surely the authors of the book who decided to compile it, had the final say to what is included and not?

 

Would it be logical to tell Homer that you found some manuscripts that in some way sound like it should have been included in his Iliad? Would Homer not laugh you off, and publish his book as he saw fit?

 

Essentially, regardless of authorship, you don't get to decide what should, or should not be included in a book if you are neither the author, editor or publisher, hence if you "find" some book you think should be included, you would be wrong.

But the Bible is a collection of books. No one is adding to the individual books but rather they are choosing which books to include or exclude.

[Robbie Stewart]

I don't deny for one minute that Jesus existed. He was likely a prophet that was popular at the time. The world is full of examples of powerful orators who can sway peoples thinking through speech and actions.

 

There are thousands of accounts of People who have sacrificed themselves for things they believe are a good reason. Some are incredible valid and Noble... Some are outright lunatics

 

okay, you submit Jesus is real. Now, He's dead. Again, forget about His ressurection for a minute. 

 

What would make his followers to forsake a life of comfort to travel the known world to spread His story, at the expense of beatings, scourging, prison, and eventually death by torture for just about all of them.

 

Who would be willing to be killed for someone who is already dead?

 

Take Peter, who denied Christ on the eve of His arrest. Who fled the scene, and went fishing in Galilee. This man, who turned coward, turned around, marched back to Jerusalem, and faced the same people who convicted Jesus to death. Why? What would convince him to change his mind. We already know he was a yellow coat coward? Why the aboutface turn to courage and conviction?

[Andrew Steer]

On the topic at hand; I have a willy and all the rest and therefore will not, for a single moment attempt an opinion as I believe that I have absolutely no contextual authority to do so.

 

On the above; these kinds of responses are not helpful and borders on that kind of arrogant offensive that is really not sexy.  

 

@ Andrew Steer: ironically your opinion on this book (“most muddled, confused and 're-interpreted' story book in history”) is exactly that…a muddling, confusing and re-interpreting of things in this book that you probably don’t understand. Add to that an odour of cynicism and bitterness of Biblical proportions and you might not be any wiser than the “blind believer” Robbie.  

 

@ Thor: you use the words “with almost mathematical certainty, doesn't exist””. I.e…there is a chance - however small - that He actually do exist. Be a gentleman and allow Robbie to believe that.

 

Now let’s crack open a beer.

You're late to the party clearly... you've missed a lot. Maybe at least have the courtesy to follow a thread before jumping on it's contributors? 

 

We've actually played pretty nice and we've tried the logical route, but the end stumbling block always remains the bible... and what it says goes apparently.

 

Numerous women have shared their views on this and were all pro choice from my recollection. But what would they know... Robbie knows better.

 

It's not about the bible, it's not about abortions, it's about a human beings right to decide for themselves what they want to do. Robbie will clearly never have an abortion, many others of us though can see that in some cases it is necessary and should be left up to the people that it actually affects to make that call. It's not an easy thing, it's not something people line up to do for fun on a Sunday... it's a life changing decision that people make and should be allowed to make.

 

Believe whatever you want... but don't force that belief on others. That's all

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I have a question for you on this topic. 

 

Historians and archaeologists are in agreement that the Historical Jesus was a real man, who lived in the time and space as portrayed by the Bible. Forget for a minute what I, personally, believe about Him.

 

Lets just talk about the reason for being willing to die on a cross. Why? What possible reason did He have to hand Himself over to be killed on a cross, even after being declared innocent by Pontius Pilate? What did He stand to gain by being crucified?

Crucifiction was a well documented and common form of death back then. Political rivals, insurgents, radicals, witches, opponents and all sorts were put to death that way. 

 

But, to answer your question, he was declared guilty and sentenced to death by crucifiction by the Jewish leaders of the time, as a radical, essentially (according to my understanding of the matter) Pilate's proclomation of his innocence (however many times he proclaimed it) does not matter. 

[Skubarra]

””. I.e…there is a chance - however small - that He actually do exist. Be a gentleman and allow Robbie to believe that.

 

Now let’s crack open a beer.

 

Robbie is not merely content with believing what he wants. He wants to enforce laws on all of us based on his beliefs even if we don't share his beliefs.

[Robbie Stewart]

Crucifiction was a well documented and common form of death back then. Political rivals, insurgents, radicals, witches, opponents and all sorts were put to death that way. 

 

But, to answer your question, he was declared guilty and sentenced to death by crucifiction by the Jewish leaders of the time, as a radical, essentially (according to my understanding of the matter) Pilate's proclomation of his innocence (however many times he proclaimed it) does not matter. 

 

He was sentenced to death for one reason. He claimed to be God.

[Gen]

I have a question for you on this topic.

 

Historians and archaeologists are in agreement that the Historical Jesus was a real man, who lived in the time and space as portrayed by the Bible. Forget for a minute what I, personally, believe about Him.

 

Lets just talk about the reason for being willing to die on a cross. Why? What possible reason did He have to hand Himself over to be killed on a cross, even after being declared innocent by Pontius Pilate? What did He stand to gain by being crucified?

He didn't hand himself over, he was a radical (some would even say a leader of a cult) .the jews refer to him as a prophet and was arrested on charges of blasphemy, the punishment was death by crucifixion.. Pilates found there was no reason to find him guilty but he gave the people a choice who he should release and they chose Barrabbas... he could've released him if he wanted he had the power to do so but the choice went the the people .. and why would he have done that if he could just have released him, it was a political decision to do so to gain favour with the Jews.. Jesus did not hand himself over the people didn't want him freed..

[Karooryder]

Believe whatever you want... but don't force that belief on others. That's all

 

Indeed my friend, indeed.

 

Ps - what gives you the autority to "play nicely" up to a point. This is a forum of adults, not bullies.

[Robbie Stewart]

Robbie is not merely content with believing what he wants. He wants to enforce laws on all of us based on his beliefs even if we don't share his beliefs.

 

I am not forcing anything, on anyone? You can believe as you want. I am merely discussing why I see things the way I do.

 

I am not intolerant of your belief. You can choose to live as you want, and if you want to abort your unborn child, that is your choice. I won't support you, but if that is what you want, then do it.

 

People mistake the concept of "tolerance".

 

I am allowed to disagree with you, and discuss my reason for such disagreement, without hindering you to live as you want. - that is tolerance.

 

 

[Odinson]

okay, you submit Jesus is real. Now, He's dead. Again, forget about His ressurection for a minute. 

 

What would make his followers to forsake a life of comfort to travel the known world to spread His story, at the expense of beatings, scourging, prison, and eventually death by torture for just about all of them.

 

Who would be willing to be killed for someone who is already dead?

 

Take Peter, who denied Christ on the eve of His arrest. Who fled the scene, and went fishing in Galilee. This man, who turned coward, turned around, marched back to Jerusalem, and faced the same people who convicted Jesus to death. Why? What would convince him to change his mind. We already know he was a yellow coat coward? Why the aboutface turn to courage and conviction?

 

You're asking folks here to try and peer into the psyche of Jewish desert dwellers who lived 2000 odd years ago, based on tales of their actions contained in texts oftentimes written decades or even hundreds of years after the alleged occurrences?

[Karooryder]

Robbie is not merely content with believing what he wants. He wants to enforce laws on all of us based on his beliefs even if we don't share his beliefs.

 

Nope. He repeatedly stated that he is not here to force anything onto anyone. In fact, he did well in providing an opinion and the associated belief system that he prefers to go with and in no forceful or offensive terms.

[Skubarra]

I am not intolerant of your belief. You can choose to live as you want, and if you want to abort your unborn child, that is your choice. I won't support you, but if that is what you want, then do it.

 

 

My apologies - I clearly misunderstood your previous posts. Didn't realise you were pro-choice.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

He was sentenced to death for one reason. He claimed to be God.

Your source? There are several versions of the "reason" for his death, that being one of them

 

The Bible is not a reputable source, for many reasons. 

[Robbie Stewart]

He didn't hand himself over, he was a radical (some would even say a leader of a cult) .the jews refer to him as a prophet and was arrested on charges of blasphemy, the punishment was death by crucifixion.. Pilates found there was no reason to find him guilty but he gave the people a choice who he should release and they chose Barrabbas... he could've released him if he wanted he had the power to do so but the choice went the the people .. and why would he have done that if he could just have released him, it was a political decision to do so to gain favour with the Jews.. Jesus did not hand himself over the people didn't want him freed..

 

From the biblical discourse, actually He did hand himself over. He tells his disciples way before the event that He is going to be crucified, and on the third day He will rise again. He says that no one takes His life from Him, He lays it down, and that He has authority from the Father to lay down His life, and to take it back up again - John 10:18

 

In the Garden of Gethsemane, when they were approached by the temple police to arrest Him, He asked them who they were looking for. They replied that they were looking for Jesus of Nazareth. He replied with "I AM He", to which they all fell to the ground  -John 18:6.

 

He was showing them that they do not take Him, He submits to them.