The Abortion Issue

[MrJacques]

Robbie, I'm not going to touch on the motivations for your decisions, suffice to say that equating an abortion to a blood sacrifice of a Phoenician demon is absolutely insane. 

 

Where my views differ mostly with you is that I don't considered a fertilized egg a 'child'. A foetus is not a child, i.e. it does not have a right to life. It does not exist separate of the mother who carries it in her womb. Thus, an abortion is not the same as murdering a child. 

 

People sacrificed their children for prosperity and personal comfort. In many modern cases this is part of their reason as well for them having abortions.

 

Just curious, at what point would you consider a fetus to be a living human being?

 

For the people who say it's the mother's body and choice, what about the baby, shouldn't he or she have a choice?

[Shebeen]

I would not allow abortion. No further discussion.

 

In the extreme outlying circumstance raised by Stretch about termination of an unborn child to save a mother's life, I will let the doctor decide what is medically required to save her life, and if it entails terminating a pregnancy, then so be it. If a mother is in terminal danger, and by not terminating she dies, then I agree (reluctantly) to terminate, since the child is bound to die regardless whether it is aborted or not if the mother dies.

 

In no other scenario do I condone abortion.

 

Now, I expect the army to start attacking me for this, but will none the less not shirk away. I am a Christian, and this is directly in opposition to my world view. I am pro life. In history, there was Baal sacrifice and later child sacrifice to a pagan god called Molech. Parents would offer their children (read babies) alive to an altar in the shape of this god, with outstretched arms engulfing the child into a burning fire. There would be musicians making such loud music to drown out the screams of the children. God judged these nations by destruction, and today, it continues in the form of abortion.

 

I am not going to support any person, institute or political party which supports abortion, no matter what method of justification they use. People get all twisted about animal rights, and the rights of minorities etc., but these same people will deny a child the right to life.

 

I do not, and never will, see eye to eye with such hatred and evil.

 

There is simply no possible reason anyone can argue past the point that they just killed a defenseless child.

Would be great to get your views on slavery

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

maybe because the religious variety have a set of values which includes not killing innocent people

That's societal values, not religious values. Religious values would have you strike down non-believers and / or apostates etc, if you study them closely and take the scriptures to heart. 

 

The "great book" espouses care for your fellow man, sure, but that's just down to good old pragmatism, and only if they believe the same thing as you. Can't have people killing each other and then have a civilised society. 

 

As for abortion - let people have the choice. You don't have to support it to allow people the choice. 

[MrJacques]

Would be great to get your views on slavery

 

There are some misconceptions about slavery and the Bible. Someone could be indebted to someone else and work off their debt, but 'slaves' have to be released in the year of Jubilee and mistreatment was never condoned. So being a Hebrew / Jew and having a slave was different to how other nations had and treated slaves.

[MrJacques]

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

People sacrificed their children for prosperity and personal comfort. In many modern cases this is part of their reason as well for them having abortions.

 

Just curious, at what point would you consider a fetus to be a living human being?

 

For the people who say it's the mother's body and choice, what about the baby, shouldn't he or she have a choice?

How would the child have a choice?

 

FWIW - foetus to baby is when it's able to survive outside the womb without medical intervention, IMO. 

[forkie]

That's societal values, not religious values. Religious values would have you strike down non-believers and / or apostates etc, if you study them closely and take the scriptures to heart. 

 

The "great book" espouses care for your fellow man, sure, but that's just down to good old pragmatism, and only if they believe the same thing as you. Can't have people killing each other and then have a civilised society. 

 

As for abortion - let people have the choice. You don't have to support it to allow people the choice. 

the problem is that the person who is most affected by this choice is the baby and he / she does not have a say. If it was the baby making the choice then i would probably agree with you

[MrJacques]

How would the child have a choice?

 

FWIW - foetus to baby is when it's able to survive outside the womb without medical intervention, IMO. 

 

In my opinion a fetus is a living human being as soon as the egg is fertilized and cells start to divide. Of course they can't speak for themselves yet, but if they could, surely they would not want to be killed? Doctors who have performed abortions can testify as to how horrible it is, especially if the fetus is already more developed.

 

According to that logic preemie babies should not be put on life support and left to die?

[forkie]

this whole debate really centers around one issue and that is at which point does a life become a human life. i dont really believe most people are capable of terminating what they perceive to be human lives and i am sure we all have a similar moral code when it comes to this. so the debate is not whether its wrong or right to kill but rather when does a foetus become human. this is where it gets murky because religious people will tell you the child has a soul at conception, but non religious will use arguments about survival outside the womb etc. Unfortunately this is where it comes down to beliefs.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

In my opinion a fetus is a living human being as soon as the egg is fertilized and cells start to divide. Of course they can't speak for themselves yet, but if they could, surely they would not want to be killed? Doctors who have performed abortions can testify as to how horrible it is, especially if the fetus is already more developed.

 

According to that logic preemie babies should not be put on life support and left to die?

No. You're conflating issues there. We're talking about abortion, not the delivery of a premature baby. Once it's delivered all attempts should be made to keep it alive

 

Fact is it's not up to me whether or not someone can get an abortion or not, not should it be up to me.

 

You asked a question, I gave you an answer. You them used that answer to make a determination on another matter entirely, based on your views, not mine. That was YOUR logic, and it wasn't at all logical

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

this whole debate really centers around one issue and that is at which point does a life become a human life. i dont really believe most people are capable of terminating what they perceive to be human lives and i am sure we all have a similar moral code when it comes to this. so the debate is not whether its wrong or right to kill but rather when does a foetus become human. this is where it gets murky because religious people will tell you the child has a soul at conception, but non religious will use arguments about survival outside the womb etc. Unfortunately this is where it comes down to beliefs.

Yes. Quite right. And no amount of discussion will change certain people's minds. BUT!! That should have fokol to do with allowing other people to have access to Safe abortion facilities, instead of going to back yard coathanger aborters. Which does happen when it's outlawed. As had been displayed multiple times already, legalisation does NOT increase the amount of abortions.

[Andrew Steer]

this whole debate really centers around one issue and that is at which point does a life become a human life. i dont really believe most people are capable of terminating what they perceive to be human lives and i am sure we all have a similar moral code when it comes to this. so the debate is not whether its wrong or right to kill but rather when does a foetus become human. this is where it gets murky because religious people will tell you the child has a soul at conception, but non religious will use arguments about survival outside the womb etc. Unfortunately this is where it comes down to beliefs.

That's why I'm pro-choice... because me as a non-believer and you as a believer have no right to decide for another person. 

 

That's all really

[cat-i]

the problem is that the person who is most affected by this choice is the baby and he / she does not have a say. If it was the baby making the choice then i would probably agree with you

 

The person most affected is probably the mother. It is her choice. 

[IceCreamMan]

When us men have shown that we take equal responsibility for and carry an equal part of the lifelong burdon of an unwanted pregnancy (including but not limited to dropping out of education, social stigmatisation and rejection, reduced life choices etc.) we get to have an equal say.

I assume you speak for yourself.

 

And are you saying all women are responsible?

[Stretch]

 

 

this whole debate really centers around one issue and that is at which point does a life become a human life.

To me it doesn't. This discussion was started because Robbie said he couldn't support a political party that supports illegal abortion. Therefore the discussion is not around what.a human life is or even the ethics around abortion.. It is around if abortion should be legal or illegal. Orget about unwanted pregnancies etc..if there is just one case where a couple's life can be impacted by not having an abortion (not because they don't want a baby) but because there are other factors to take into consideration. If it was illegal and they were forced to sell alternatives... Then in my option there government has failed them and not provided them with the basic care they needed. Based upon that they can then make their own informed decision what to do. It's not about abortion.. It's about choice.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I assume you speak for yourself.

 

And are you saying all women are responsible?

You know that's not what he's saying. You're sounding like Cathy Newman in that Jordan Peterson interview, and it looks as if you're being deliberately obtuse.