Indoor training on a dual sus MTB on a Wahoo Kickr

[Muttley]

Hi guys,

 

So I've been using my Wahoo Kickr (direct drive) with my dual suspension MTB (1 x 12) for about 2 or so years now without any issues. Currently doing training plans on Zwift with ERG mode and to date have been able to produce the required power for the plan I'm doing. The Mrs won't allow another bike in the house so this is out of the question. 

 

Front and rear are both locked out but still seeing about 20% travel on rear suspension. Not really concerned about travel on front fork.

 

I'm not planning on riding on the road so my focus remains trail riding.

 

Question time: 

• Am I do myself a disservice with my current setup in terms of training/gaining power due to the squish factor?
  • Is my current setup simulating MTB riding which has some squish and should be left as is?
• Should I add air to my rear suspension to completely stiffen it up (based on Fox's guidelines)?

I have noticed that in Zwift races, it's really hard to put the power down and does feel like i'm losing out here.

 

Any other feedback would be great, thanks 

[Duane_Bosch]

I'm currently running my MTB on the trainer. It's on there permanently as it's the only use I'm getting from it right now. Swapping the roadie on and off is a nut ache of the highest order.

 

I took note of my shock pressures and I've pumped up both front and rear as much as I can. I'm currently getting about 5% movement in the suspension. You are definitely losing some power through suspension movement. No doubt.

 

I only ever use ERG mode and workouts so it's much of a muchness to me. It is after all a cartoon and you are going nowhere. Your legs don't know this so the fitness effect will be the same.

 

I don't do Zwift races but I imagine your gearing and suspension would count against you. That and the fact that you are competing against people who claim to weigh 23kg.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Duane_Bosch

[SCD]

I would watch out for my shocks. If they are permanently locked out and thus move very little they won't stir up the oil and run dry at the seal. Over time you can damage your stanchions there. Bigger risk for forks and for shocks with the can lower than the stanchion. If the can is above the stanchion the oil sits right on the seal and should be fine.

I wouldn't be too concerned about power. It probably is good for you (you work a little harder) and you will loose out a tiny bit in your eRaces. Question is: will you drop from 1st to 2nd place or from 167th to 168th? 

[Muttley]

I would watch out for my shocks. If they are permanently locked out and thus move very little they won't stir up the oil and run dry at the seal. Over time you can damage your stanchions there. Bigger risk for forks and for shocks with the can lower than the stanchion. If the can is above the stanchion the oil sits right on the seal and should be fine.

I wouldn't be too concerned about power. It probably is good for you (you work a little harder) and you will loose out a tiny bit in your eRaces. Question is: will you drop from 1st to 2nd place or from 167th to 168th? 

Thanks for the feedback and i'll look into this - In truth, I'm certain my bike will need a full service after lockdown....

 

I should've mentioned that I do the odd race - my focus is more on my own training.

[madmarc]

which bike have you selected in ZWIFT - I initialy selected the MTB and was told you will struggle to keep up to the roadies in SWIFT races so I changed it to the road bike.

 

I'm no ZWIFT junkie so i'm under correction that maybe this is why you struggle in the online races

[ArrieM]

I would also like to run my dual sus on the IDT my question is does it not put significant stress on rear pivots? Maybe a stupid question.

[Muttley]

which bike have you selected in ZWIFT - I initialy selected the MTB and was told you will struggle to keep up to the roadies in SWIFT races so I changed it to the road bike.

 

I'm no ZWIFT junkie so i'm under correction that maybe this is why you struggle in the online races

Thanks - Also love my MTB in the game but raced last time with the Trek Emonda

[ChrisF]

which bike have you selected in ZWIFT - I initialy selected the MTB and was told you will struggle to keep up to the roadies in SWIFT races so I changed it to the road bike.

 

I'm no ZWIFT junkie so i'm under correction that maybe this is why you struggle in the online races

 

Jip, that ZWIFT MTB is a boat anchor !!

 

 

TT bike is the fastest ... but no drafting ...   

[Duane_Bosch]

Jip, that ZWIFT MTB is a boat anchor !!

 

 

TT bike is the fastest ... but no drafting ...   

Yissie bru. I've been on Zwift for 2 months now an no matter what bike i ride I've moved MAYBE 2 inches in total.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Duane_Bosch

[RobertWhitehead]

I believe that the maintenance on your dual sus will outweigh the price of buying a very old 26er HT pretty quickly. I mean you're wearing your current chain, chain ring, BB, shifter, shifter cable, rear derailleur and then all the suspension parts as SCD mentioned.

 

Now before anyone points out that the OP mentioned that this is out of the question, I can read and this was merely an observation and builds into the rest of my point    .

 

Now to answer your question about the disservice, my answer is: yes. 

 

My answer is yes not for the reason you have mentioned, my answer is yes because of the gear ratio you're running. I am very well aware that some folks would argue that on ERG mode the trainer gives the resistance and that the gears do not matter, but, bear with me here. 

 

Consider this, do a ramp test on Zwift in the heaviest gear on your bike (in this case 12th). Now you have an FTP of lets say 150W (still, bear with me here). 

 

Now have a rest and the next day or whenever repeat the same ramp test but this time put the bike in its lightest gear (1st gear). Will your FTP be the same?

There is no way in hell. 

 

Yes, the trainer has ERG mode or I normally call it "electronic resistance" but you have a second form of resistance and I normally call this: "mechanical resistance" (your gear ratio).

 

The disservice you're doing to yourself is that you are currently limiting the "electronic resistance" the trainer can offer because you do not have enough "mechanical resistance".

 

So how do I propose you resolve this matter? By getting a dedicated HT with a 2 or even a 3x config. You can do a ramp test by shifting through the gears as the resistance picks up and ensuring the cadence remains inline with what Zwift classifies as normal (probably between 70 & 90). That way you'll have a higher FTP and will be able to go harder and faster on the platform due to the higher mechanical range. 

[Muttley]

I believe that the maintenance on your dual sus will outweigh the price of buying a very old 26er HT pretty quickly. I mean you're wearing your current chain, chain ring, BB, shifter, shifter cable, rear derailleur and then all the suspension parts as SCD mentioned.

 

Now before anyone points out that the OP mentioned that this is out of the question, I can read and this was merely an observation and builds into the rest of my point    .

 

Now to answer your question about the disservice, my answer is: yes. 

 

My answer is yes not for the reason you have mentioned, my answer is yes because of the gear ratio you're running. I am very well aware that some folks would argue that on ERG mode the trainer gives the resistance and that the gears do not matter, but, bear with me here. 

 

Consider this, do a ramp test on Zwift in the heaviest gear on your bike (in this case 12th). Now you have an FTP of lets say 150W (still, bear with me here). 

 

Now have a rest and the next day or whenever repeat the same ramp test but this time put the bike in its lightest gear (1st gear). Will your FTP be the same?

There is no way in hell. 

 

Yes, the trainer has ERG mode or I normally call it "electronic resistance" but you have a second form of resistance and I normally call this: "mechanical resistance" (your gear ratio).

 

The disservice you're doing to yourself is that you are currently limiting the "electronic resistance" the trainer can offer because you do not have enough "mechanical resistance".

 

So how do I propose you resolve this matter? By getting a dedicated HT with a 2 or even a 3x config. You can do a ramp test by shifting through the gears as the resistance picks up and ensuring the cadence remains inline with what Zwift classifies as normal (probably between 70 & 90). That way you'll have a higher FTP and will be able to go harder and faster on the platform due to the higher mechanical range. 

Thanks for the detailed reply - this is the info that I was after...

 

So basically it's time to start convincing the Mrs 

[Muttley]

I believe that the maintenance on your dual sus will outweigh the price of buying a very old 26er HT pretty quickly. I mean you're wearing your current chain, chain ring, BB, shifter, shifter cable, rear derailleur and then all the suspension parts as SCD mentioned.

 

Now before anyone points out that the OP mentioned that this is out of the question, I can read and this was merely an observation and builds into the rest of my point    .

 

Now to answer your question about the disservice, my answer is: yes. 

 

My answer is yes not for the reason you have mentioned, my answer is yes because of the gear ratio you're running. I am very well aware that some folks would argue that on ERG mode the trainer gives the resistance and that the gears do not matter, but, bear with me here. 

 

Consider this, do a ramp test on Zwift in the heaviest gear on your bike (in this case 12th). Now you have an FTP of lets say 150W (still, bear with me here). 

 

Now have a rest and the next day or whenever repeat the same ramp test but this time put the bike in its lightest gear (1st gear). Will your FTP be the same?

There is no way in hell. 

 

Yes, the trainer has ERG mode or I normally call it "electronic resistance" but you have a second form of resistance and I normally call this: "mechanical resistance" (your gear ratio).

 

The disservice you're doing to yourself is that you are currently limiting the "electronic resistance" the trainer can offer because you do not have enough "mechanical resistance".

 

So how do I propose you resolve this matter? By getting a dedicated HT with a 2 or even a 3x config. You can do a ramp test by shifting through the gears as the resistance picks up and ensuring the cadence remains inline with what Zwift classifies as normal (probably between 70 & 90). That way you'll have a higher FTP and will be able to go harder and faster on the platform due to the higher mechanical range. 

It took me 2 months worth of convincing but my indoor trainer semi dedicated road bike arrives tomorrow... 

 

Thanks once again for your input - looking forward to this!

[CAAD4]

Would she rather you spend the time and money in pubs,or heaven forbid, golf course???

[madmarc]

I believe that the maintenance on your dual sus will outweigh the price of buying a very old 26er HT pretty quickly. I mean you're wearing your current chain, chain ring, BB, shifter, shifter cable, rear derailleur and then all the suspension parts as SCD mentioned.

 

Now before anyone points out that the OP mentioned that this is out of the question, I can read and this was merely an observation and builds into the rest of my point    .

 

Now to answer your question about the disservice, my answer is: yes. 

 

My answer is yes not for the reason you have mentioned, my answer is yes because of the gear ratio you're running. I am very well aware that some folks would argue that on ERG mode the trainer gives the resistance and that the gears do not matter, but, bear with me here. 

 

Consider this, do a ramp test on Zwift in the heaviest gear on your bike (in this case 12th). Now you have an FTP of lets say 150W (still, bear with me here). 

 

Now have a rest and the next day or whenever repeat the same ramp test but this time put the bike in its lightest gear (1st gear). Will your FTP be the same?

There is no way in hell. 

 

Yes, the trainer has ERG mode or I normally call it "electronic resistance" but you have a second form of resistance and I normally call this: "mechanical resistance" (your gear ratio).

 

The disservice you're doing to yourself is that you are currently limiting the "electronic resistance" the trainer can offer because you do not have enough "mechanical resistance".

 

So how do I propose you resolve this matter? By getting a dedicated HT with a 2 or even a 3x config. You can do a ramp test by shifting through the gears as the resistance picks up and ensuring the cadence remains inline with what Zwift classifies as normal (probably between 70 & 90). That way you'll have a higher FTP and will be able to go harder and faster on the platform due to the higher mechanical range. 

 

I have been on TR for over 3 years and only used the Ramp test in ERG mode - Some time back i tested your analogy over a 7 day period - High gear / Low gear / high cadence / low cadence - every test i did ended with the same result within 1 or 2 watts of each other. 

Any change in, as you put it mech resistance, is compensated by the trainer resetting the brake. So if you change gears the trainer will auto adjust to compensate, if you speed up or slow down your cadence the trainer auto adjusts in the same way.

My conclusion was - your ftp is your ftp no matter what gear or cadence you do it at.

 

To answer the OP question about power loss - Maybe do a test by using a HT on the same route and compare the difference - maybe the power loss is a perceived power loss due to the squish factor and not real power loss 

[Muttley]

I have been on TR for over 3 years and only used the Ramp test in ERG mode - Some time back i tested your analogy over a 7 day period - High gear / Low gear / high cadence / low cadence - every test i did ended with the same result within 1 or 2 watts of each other. 

Any change in, as you put it mech resistance, is compensated by the trainer resetting the brake. So if you change gears the trainer will auto adjust to compensate, if you speed up or slow down your cadence the trainer auto adjusts in the same way.

My conclusion was - your ftp is your ftp no matter what gear or cadence you do it at.

 

To answer the OP question about power loss - Maybe do a test by using a HT on the same route and compare the difference - maybe the power loss is a perceived power loss due to the squish factor and not real power loss 

 

My understanding is that an FTP test is done/should be done with ERG mode off- this way, in a ramp test, you're forced to push out the required watts or in the case of a normal FTP test, you ride as hard as you can for 20 mins/60 mins if you're insane. 

 

Once your FTP test is done and set, you can then use ERG mode again to hold you at certain wattage's for a chosen training plan that's based on your FTP test.

 

[madmarc]

My understanding is that an FTP test is done/should be done with ERG mode off- this way, in a ramp test, you're forced to push out the required watts or in the case of a normal FTP test, you ride as hard as you can for 20 mins/60 mins if you're insane. 

 

Once your FTP test is done and set, you can then use ERG mode again to hold you at certain wattage's for a chosen training plan that's based on your FTP test.

 

ftp.JPG

 

I would agree with that on a 2 X 8 min or 1 x 20 min FTP test, as you are supposed to push as hard as you can for the test duration in any gear at any cadence, the result is the ave of 2 x 8 min or 20 min ave power output. A ramp test is different, where the final result is based on the best 1 minute power x 0.75. So in Erg mode you get a much more accurate result than slope mode where you changing gears and cadence to reach the target power. 

 

In erg mode the trainer ramps each minute by 20 w (I think) you dont need to change gears as it has no effect, only changing cadence will have an effect - the faster you pedal the easier it is to pedal and the slower you pedal the harder it is to pedal.

 

Thats no to say slope mode is incorrect - I suppose you can use it but most training platforms recommend ERG mode for a ramp test on a smart trainer. All depends what floats your boat when testing.

On the other hand if you have a dumb trainer on virtual power you will need to do the same as if your were in slope mode