Tri Nations...Madison win a scam

[Chunky]

Maybe just rumours' date=' team manager denies everything, says whole SA team pooled money and split in middle.

Remember Risi, Marvulli rode 6hrs in morning acc to Willemse snr.

[/quote']

 

Hmmmmmm....

 

I cant remember a tri nations that didnt have a little 'I pay you, and you let me win'.

 

I have ridden about 6 or 7 of them and it happened everytime. The guys are just putting on a show. Besides if you ask Me Chris Snr was probably the one who struck the deal .

 

Was it not the case that everyone enjoyed the evenings racing, why not just leave it at that. If you ask my honest answer I would say 100% they paid for it but who cares.

[Chrispy]

While this forum might give one the false sense of "I can say what I want and get away with it",the fact is if you accuse people of being a crook and a cheat you could be liable for legal action. Garth Thomas .wanted to post a reply on the forum but was advised not to do so and rather let the law takes it's course.

Get a life people, Marvulli and Risi gets paid real money overseas and will not take smallchange to let other teams win.

[Chunky]

 

Who cares what they did, as long as the spectators enjoyed it. It was a friendly International track event. Are the spectators going to stop going to 6 day racing because it happens there too.

Cmon guys, this is getting a bit petty.

[MintSauce]

Chunky....if you want that form of entertainment go watch WWE or Days of our Lives.

 

Sorry but that is a twisted point of view considering that this is touted as being real racing. Perhaps your point of view is influenced by the fact you also profited from the same type of dealings.

 

People who rig races are liars and cheats. I bet you're also one of those guys that complains about Zuma and his kin but then doesn't mind pocketing some extra cash on the side to drop a race.

 

What a joke?!

 

And if rigging is so rife, then no, I sure as hell won't be watching!

MintSauce2007-03-17 02:06:24

[Chunky]

Mintsauce

I understand what you are saying. All I am saying is that they are making a bigger thing of it than what it actually is.

These type of events are there for the crowd. I know they want to see proper racing but its normal at 6 day races etc to put on a show. In these cases its normaly the locals who get to be the heroes for the day.

Guys like Risi are real proffesionals. It would not take any effort for them to lap the SA team 10 times if they wanted to. But that is not what the crowd would like to see. Who would ever come back if the SA team finished the madison in 5th place a few laps down. These guys know that and give the crowd a show.

 

Unfortunately whenever ther is money involved there will be some sort of corruption. But Cmon, is selling a madison at the tri nations actually that bad or are we over reacting a bit.

 

And to top it off, there is actually no proof that they did pay for the race, its all just speculation now isnt it. Stupid comments made by a guy behind an alias name.

 

Sure, it has happened before and its going to happen again.

 

Trial by media again by the looks of it

Chunky2007-03-17 03:35:44

[MintSauce]

Agreeing to disagree.....i just think it's not on

 

I'd rather have my team's ass whipped for real. It's the only way they'll ever try to become competitive.....even if it might take 50yrs

 

Agree it's better to wait for facts....just sharing my thoughts on the discussion

 

Later

[Pieter Henning]

In my opinion, this sounds a lot like the post Tour crits in Europe, which are all fixed and everybody knows it, but yet people don't complain and still go in their thousands to watch, as this is their chance to see the pro's racing up close and personal.

[Pieter Henning]

Fixed for the fans - the post-TdF criteriums

A race where the outcome is known before the start? Surely not! Well, yes. The series of races generically known as 'post-Tour crits' provide the cycling-mad fans in Belgium, Holland and Germany with an opportunity to get close to the stars of the Tour de France. Jeff Jones provides an overview of these races where the outcome is known before the start.

Elmar KringsON>

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2002/aug02/dortmund/Zabel_McEwens.jpg

(BELGIUM, August 8, 2002): The post-Tour criterium circuit is currently in full swing, usually taking place over the two weeks following the completion of the Tour de France. The popular races are held in most countries, in towns such as Boxmeer, Stiphout, Chaam, Heerlen, Roosendaal, Surhuisterveen, Oostvoorne, Pijnacker (Netherlands), Aalst, Geraardsbergen, Peer (Belgium), Dortmund, Rhede, Duisberg, Hannover (Germany), Camors, Liseaux (France), Herning (Denmark), Graz (Austria), and this year for the first time, New York (USA).

The latter is a bit of an anomaly in the sense that the race isn't decided before the start. What? Fixing races?!? A shocking state of affairs! It would never happen in my day - I suppose you're going to tell me that Santa Claus isn't real next? Rumour has it that you can even place bets on these races, although you have to be quick to collect your money afterwards...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2002/aug02/stiphout/Armstrong_Cippos.jpg

It should be remembered that these races are a public spectacle, where thousands of fans can see their heroes in person, after just having completed their three weeks of suffering in France. Although some of the riders don't earn a great deal of prize money during the Tour, they can make up for that by riding the post Tour criterium circuit. Jersey winners (Lance Armstrong) or big name riders (Mario Cipollini) can earn between 20 and 60 thousand euros per race in start money, while the rest of the pack has to make do with the pickings, which are still better than nothing.

Rabobank's Addy Engels commented to the Amersfoortse Courant about why the riders chose to race in these "spectacles" so soon after finishing an enormously taking three week bicycle race. "You have to train, even after the Tour. If you don't do anything for two or three days you have problems. And what is better than training at night and they even pay for it? It's like looking at monkeys. There aren't too many sporting heroes who are on television for three weeks. You can follow them very closely. And the audience wants to see them live."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2002/aug02/stiphout/telekoms.jpg

The budget of a criterium such as the Ronde van Boxmeer is 135,000 euro. Most of this budget goes to the riders. If someone like Armstrong costs 60,000 euro, and the Dutch super trio of Erik Dekker, Michael Boogerd and Karsten Kroon another 35,000 euro, the organiser has to make a choice as to how many (and which) Tour riders he wants, to try and keep everyone happy. In the heyday of Dutch post Tour crits 25 years ago, there were 96 races on offer. Now there are only 12.

"It would be hypocritical to say that I do this for fun," said Michael Boogerd. "It's my job and I get a lot of money for it. And there are a lot of kids who can't go to France to see us. I know it; when I was I kid I was very enthusiastic about seeing the riders for real. Cycling is a real sport for the working class people; that's the power of our sport."

Before the advent of high base salaries, post-Tour criteriums used to be an important part of a rider's program, as they could earn a lot more money in proportion to their normal salaries. Top Dutch criterium manager Gerry van Gerwen says "But since cycling is a television sport, the base salaries are good enough, and the criteriums can come in second place. It's more a publicity exercise. The riders get applause, get recognition and promote their own brand."

He equates doing criteriums as the same as a singer who is famous on TV doing a world tour. "A criterium brings the riders to the people. You can see them, smell them and touch them," he said.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2002/aug02/herning/FRJhamilton_s.jpg

What goes down?

So how do they manage to 'fool' the public into believing that a real race is happening? Although it should be blatantly obvious from the results - how often would Lance Armstrong beat Mario Cipollini and Giovanni Lombardi in a criterium, for example? But these are professionals, and they know how to put on a good show.

In the early laps, when the pace is not so high, they will let a local favourite go to please the crowd. Meanwhile, the rest of the peloton will grimace in pain as though they are giving it everything to chase the local rider down, eventually succeeding at a (perceived) huge cost of energy. These guys can ride criteriums at over 50 km/h if they want, so the speed doesn't have to be that low to make it look good for the public.

Addy Engels puts it this way. "Don't forget, we do 100 kilometres mostly in under 2.5 hours - mostly above 40 km/h. So it isn't that easy. Tactics aren't the most important part of these races. But present yourself to the audience, that is. People come for their fun, they want to see the big shots and a nice race. And we take care that they get what they want.

Allowing for the fact that the top three are usually pre-determined, the rest of the placings can be fought out in earnest. So, some genuine racing actually does happen amongst the pro's at these events. There's also the various support races, with the amateurs, women, juniors and masters, who are free to race as hard as they like, while the crowd gradually drowns itself in the local beverage of choice.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2002/aug02/scandihealth02/FRJcarls.jpg

This brings us to an important point. In many European countries (Belgium springs to mind for some reason), the carnival or 'feest' is a big and very ingrained part of the culture. Folks like to have fun, and having a sideshow of bicycle racing to go with their beer is an ideal form of entertainment. It's relatively quiet (depending on the PA system), but fast and exciting enough to capture the attention.

Criteriums and kermesses, cyclocross races and track races are all very much spectator friendly cycling events. Road races aren't nearly as spectator friendly, unless there are finishing circuits or a publicity caravan to keep the crowds amused while they wait for their 30 seconds of action. They work, because people can still enjoy a day out in the fresh air with other like-minded folks. The Tour de France takes this to an extreme, as evidenced by the enormous crowds en route. As far as the racing is concerned, anyone can see it better on TV, but the atmosphere of being there is something that is very hard to capture on the box.

Criteriums provide this and more, because you can watch the best riders, as well as having a convenient place to party on into the night. They are for the most part free to watch (except for Draai van der Kaai in Rooosendaal which is 12 euros per person). The good guys win and everyone is happy. There's still an element of unpredicability about them anyway, as most of those watching will not have access to the winner's list.

[Groot Lem]

According to my source there was a deal. CSA wasnt aware of it before the time. I dont agree and would like an investigation. Obviously it will be denied, lets see who does.

[Brakkies Sport Fotos]

En even daai outjie wat daar gery het, was kommentator op Supercycling, (oor die velodrome aand)

 

 

 

Dit moet moeilik wees om vir 10 min so te sit ek k@k te verkondig terwyl jy weet die audience voor die TV weet jy praat stront.

 

 

[Chrispy]

According to my source there was a deal. CSA wasnt aware of it before the time. I dont agree and would like an investigation. Obviously it will be denied' date=' lets see who does. [/quote']

 

Such a nice day for a ride in Stellies!

 

Why would you want to keep yourself busy with stuff you are never going to get answers for.

 

My sources denies any deals.

 

So you get a point and I get a point.

 

Result = Zero

[No Name Funrider]

Track racing is great ;but pros will not race for nothing,are their any S.A. track riders with enough points to even compete in the world cup(since JP V Zyl retired)name them . Our riders are lucky to ride against these guys --fixed or not.I remember watching a so called tri- nations where Russian juniors rode --they had mixed clincher road tyres on their steel frames and rode like demons.Our commonwealth games team pursuit squad were sponsored with Dutch bikes and top of the range SRM power training equipment + excellent coach and where did they come stone last ,wont mention any names ;but where were our track stars in points and scratch also? if trading places and making money is the forte of the six day who are we to argue? we must accept and learn if we are to be in any way competetive.NNF No Name Funrider2007-04-23 00:32:59

[snah2]

According to my source there was a deal. CSA wasnt aware of it before the time. I dont agree and would like an investigation. Obviously it will be denied' date=' lets see who does. [/quote']

 

 

pLEASE gROOT lEM

 

Do not waste your energy on chasing this "fix" or "no fix",

Channel your energies to where they are needed.CSA need to get its house in order and this is not where you should be spending your,and others'' time.....!

[Vittel]

No name funrider....Kyle Swain rode in alot of world cups finished fifth in the overalll WC standing and competed in six day events. rumor has it he pulled out of the CW games team two weeks before the time because he didnt want anything to do with the SA team that had been selected, Maybe if riders like him were not so arrogant and helped fellow countrymen out track cycling would be somewhere. This is the same kyle who now manages the Colorpress Team who have some suspiciously strong riders. It was their team of five that brought back the first break in the TDBN....a team that was battling to finish races last year

[No Name Funrider]

No name funrider....Kyle Swain rode in alot of world cups finished fifth in the overalll WC standing and competed in six day events. rumor has it he pulled out of the CW games team two weeks before the time because he didnt want anything to do with the SA team that had been selected' date=' Maybe if riders like him were not so arrogant and helped fellow countrymen out track cycling would be somewhere. This is the same kyle who now manages the Colorpress Team who have some suspiciously strong riders. It was their team of five that brought back the first break in the TDBN....a team that was battling to finish races last year[/quote']

 

Quite right ;we do have the occasional total track star ;but i think that is more genetics and self dtermination than local training.(or whatever)JP went to keirin school ,which is an honour not bestowed on many,do you know of any other SA trackies who made keirin school,just out of interest.Cheers NNF

[Vittel]

Keirin school is purely for sprinters and is one of the highly acclaimed acheivements in sprint cycling. But no six day rider would ever get invited there so we cant really compare that. The biggest problem is the way track cycling is run on a provincial level in this country. Go to HN park on a saturday and tell me if it looks inviting to go ride there, IMO it doesnt, perhaps i am wrong but everybody is entitled to their own oponion. I was in europe and went to watch a track grand prix and this is where i even heard of Kyle for the first time. He had been in europe for three years and most south africans dont know who he is. It might of been his attitude towards all south africans. He will also openly admit that six day racing and most track grand prixs are fixed so what happened in cape town wasnt actually too bad. As far as i know JP and Kyle are the only two that have made international headlines on the track. If anyone else has any to ad it would be greatly APP.

Shot