Would you recommend Q rings

[fandacious]

"This is an endless punt for Q-rings"

 

And here I thought it was because I asked such intriguing and topical questions...

[Ivanb]

So IvanB what is it you really want from this thread? Those are the typical comments that you will read on any forum dealing with Q-rings' date=' Biopace, Osymetric or any other variation of them. At the end of the day it's all just personal opinion as there is no proof either way.

If this is just 23 pages of punting and marketing then rather than re-ignite issues that have been discussed to death just come out and say it...

"This is an endless punt for Q-rings"
[/quote']

 

What do I want?

 

Firstly the hubbers started this blog not me. I comment here as me Ivanb not under any psuedo name or alias. .

 

I would like to see honest opinions, science or personal.

 

The topic of science came up and that increased the comments. As has the number of users that re commenting

 

The honest opinions can be put on here and then sense will prevail.

 

If it increases sales great.

 

But it makes interesting reading. As the agent I think I am entitled to comment and respond as is any hubber.

 

The only thing I don't want is competitor agents or people hiding behind an alias and negatively commenting to bring down a product or person or event for their gain or just for the sake of it.

 

Open honest comments for whatever reason is what I think this hub needs and is appreciated.

 

May forums and blogs last for ever

[FanieFiets]

 

Went spinning this morning. My pedal stroke did feel more unregular than usual. So I have a question:

Will your pedal stroke get worse and worse the more you use q-rings because it is easier in the dead spot?

 

Kom nou Fanie. Jy ry die goed al lank genoeg. Gee ons jou opinie oor 'n 10 km timetrial.

 

Vinniger/stadiger tyd?

Hoer/Laer hartklop?

Meer/minder brand in bene?

Meer/Minder watts in totaal?

 

Of het jy nog nie sulke detail beskikbaar vir ons nie?

 

 

Daar is 'n bult by ons strandhuis wat ek 'n week na die argus 'n paar keer gery het en nou weer.

 

1.  Vinniger tyd. omtrent 5% in die later repitisies meer.

2.  Hoer hartklop. So 5 beats.

3.  Minder brand. Ek het 'n baie konstante spoed elke slag gekry. Gewoonlik is elke slag stadiger.

4.  Het nie 'n pt. nie

 

Onthou dit kan 'n moerse klomp ander goed ook wees. Maar ek is darem veronderstel om meer onfiks te wees as net na die argus.

 

[Johan Bornman]

Windbreaker says:
"This is an endless punt for Q-rings"

 

Ivanb (who?) says 

 

"Firstly the hubbers started this blog not me. I comment here as me Ivanb not under any psuedo name or alias." 

 

Johan: Oh, so your name is Ivanb. Like Sher you don't have a surname? Ivanb is an alias by any name.

 

Ivanb(?) "I would like to see honest opinions, science or personal."

 

Science is based on fact and you don't express your opinion about it. For instance, 1+2=3  Expressing an opinion about that is futile.  

 

Ivanb(?) "The honest opinions can be put on here and then sense will prevail."

 

Johan: I doubt it, sense doesn't prevail when marketing hype is dressed up as science.

 

Ivanb (?) "But it makes interesting reading. "

 

Johan: No, it doesn't make interesting reading. It is sad that so many athletes don't understand basic, and I mean basic, science. Nutrition, arithmetic and physics is black magic to them.

 

 

Ivanb(?) "The only thing I don't want is competitor agents or people hiding behind an alias and negatively commenting to bring down a product or person or event for their gain or just for the sake of it."

 

Ivan, just come right out and say who is badmouthing your bogus product for their own benefit? The only answer can be the entire round chainring business. You're talking major conspiracy here. BTW. Who shot Kennedy?

 

Ivanb(?) "Open honest comments for whatever reason is what I think this hub needs and is appreciated."

 

Johan: Allow me to be frank. The Hub, or Bicycling Magazine or Bike SA or whatever, doesn't need more opinion. They all need more science. Opinion is ok for deciding what colour is the best for a bicycle. Science is cast in stone and ruled by universal laws. If the universe were to operate on your laws it would no longer be. Stop encouraging people to post their opinions and then praise them as if they've made a scientific breakthrough.

 

Someone going up a hill using oval rings and reporting that "he was less out of breath than last time when he was very fit after doing the Argus" hardly proves anything.

 

I accept that some people will like the feeling of oval rings more than round rings. But that's like someone preferring a red bike to a blue one. Just stop explaining it with pseudo-science.

 

My real name is Johan Bornman. What is yours?

[FanieFiets]

Dis Cher nie Sher nie, haar regte naam is Cheryl Sarkisian LaPierre.  Ek weet dit dra nie regtig tot die gesprek by nie, maar hoop 'it makes for interesting reading!'.

[Mudsimus]

This is getting so old....we need someone to post something naked on this thread... Mud Dee2007-08-08 09:26:11

[Ivanb]

Johan I am quite disappointed at the comments you have made. I wanted to meet with because you sounded interesting and we could have good discussions about your point of veiw, but it seems you have a hidden agenda, or someone or something  has done something to you to warant this abuse.

 

If 'thehubsa' belongs to you and we are all commenting incorrectly then I apologise and I will not come back here.

 

But from what I know about it, it is an open forum for discussion amongst cyclists.

 

'Scientists' can post their veiws, the man in the street can do so to and so can I.

 

I see as well you wear BBB branded shirt and you did say in one of your comments that Q Rings are expensive and more expensive than what you use which is 'sponsored or remunerate' BBB product. Yes of course they are more expensive than BBB and yes of course they offer more than the BBB round rings but those points against competitor brands I do make unless forced to.

 

We sell and market q rings and their products we do not sell against any one brand but against type of product. Comments we make against Biopace or O symmetric is when people have commented or asked about them.

 

So I believe in what I sell, I live by them and will do what I can to get everyone on my side by building good relationships and trust.  I will never get everyone because there are always those that will never change.

 

We will continue with our atheltic proven technolgies.

 

Windbreaker says:
"This is an endless punt for Q-rings"

 

Ivanb (who?) says 

 

"Firstly the hubbers started this blog not me. I comment here as me Ivanb not under any psuedo name or alias." 

 

Johan: Oh' date=' so your name is Ivanb. Like Sher you don't have a surname? Ivanb is an alias by any name. My Name is Ivan Blumenfeld from IMB Sport-Med formely Impressions Fitness & Health.  Telephone 073 373 5999 website: www.impressions.co.za Married with two children. Live in Joburg.

 

Ivanb(?) "I would like to see honest opinions, science or personal."

 

Science is based on fact and you don't express your opinion about it. For instance, 1+2=3  Expressing an opinion about that is futile.   

 

Ivanb(?) "The honest opinions can be put on here and then sense will prevail."

 

Johan: I doubt it, sense doesn't prevail when marketing hype is dressed up as science.  This comment is not what I hope you make to out to be. We are not creating marketing hype dressed up as science, as I did not start the blog.

 

Ivanb (?) "But it makes interesting reading. "

 

Johan: No, it doesn't make interesting reading. It is sad that so many athletes don't understand basic, and I mean basic, science. Nutrition, arithmetic and physics is black magic to them.  I agree with you as to what a great deal of athletes don't know. I have seen this from athletics, rugby, swimming,  cycling and on and on. But that is why we are battling in SA to achieve world standards, our coaches think they knowit all. In teh real world atheles are tested by various performance diagnostic testing, a programme is set by the exercise physiologist and then given to the coach to implement. We do it all by coach.

 

 

Ivanb(?) "The only thing I don't want is competitor agents or people hiding behind an alias and negatively commenting to bring down a product or person or event for their gain or just for the sake of it."

 

Ivan, just come right out and say who is badmouthing your bogus product for their own benefit? The only answer can be the entire round chainring business. You're talking major conspiracy here. BTW. Who shot Kennedy?

 

I have asked that? I don't know how you voted!

 

Johan the comment 'bogus' is not appreciated. Your comments on the science and physics n your opinions, are appreciated but do not condemn a product that you are not involved with in creation, developement, sales or know anything about.  

 

 

Ivanb(?) "Open honest comments for whatever reason is what I think this hub needs and is appreciated."

 

Johan: Allow me to be frank. The Hub, or Bicycling Magazine or Bike SA or whatever, doesn't need more opinion. They all need more science. Opinion is ok for deciding what colour is the best for a bicycle. Science is cast in stone and ruled by universal laws. If the universe were to operate on your laws it would no longer be. Stop encouraging people to post their opinions and then praise them as if they've made a scientific breakthrough.

 

Someone going up a hill using oval rings and reporting that "he was less out of breath than last time when he was very fit after doing the Argus" hardly proves anything.

 

I accept that some people will like the feeling of oval rings more than round rings. But that's like someone preferring a red bike to a blue one. Just stop explaining it with pseudo-science.

 

You should look at what people comment and not make rash comments like these. What people want is their choice however it is put across, by us, by them or by you.

 

You cannot argue in anyway against fact that a cyclists rides better with Q rings or with carbon fibre or what ever if that is what he says and his training or testing data shows the improved results.

 

I don't know if you are a coach to apart from being a mechanic? If you were you would know a great deal of information whether a programme is working is based on the improved performance of an athlete, whether he is  a runner, swimmer, cyclists or racing car driver, comes from the data obtained from testing and comments the athlete makes.

 

You can't make someone do hills if the are out of breath and heart rate screaming. But if they have the qrings on the bike and they feel fien then they can. If a runner on the track runs a 100m in 10.6 in spikes a and then tries spikes b and runs 10.55 what do you think he will want to run? and yes spikes can make a difference.

 

Is it your intention that we listen to you and go back to the original steel frame created when cycling started? As you explained the new geometry makes no difference, I see you on tv recomending modifying forks, voiding warranties, drilling holes etc. A guy who buys a bike for R20 000.00 grinds his fork has voided his warranty!! Is this right even if the Johan science says it is no good? 

 

Does this mean that technology should not happen? 

 

My real name is Johan Bornman. What is yours?

IVAN BLUMENFELD I have edited my profile to include this. If there was place all my details would be their[/quote']

 

I don't wish to get into petty bantering but cannot take abusive unsounded comments. Let the cyclists speak and comment and you cancomment however you want , science or not, but do not bash a product when you have another competing brand behind you.

[fandacious]

This is getting so old....we need someone to post something naked on this thread...

 

 

go hijack your own threads

 

Anyways - I got an official warning from admin last time i did that... its your turn now...

fandacious2007-08-08 09:31:05

[Mudsimus]

This is getting so old....we need someone to post something naked on this thread...

 

 

go hijack your own threads

 

Anyways - I got an official warning from admin last time i did that... its your turn now...

 

You did go a little overboard....

 

Nah...I wont hijack the thread..If it keep going as is, someone's gonna get moered..woudnt like to miss that.

[fandacious]

[quote=Mud Dee

Nah...I wont hijack the thread..

 

 

Too late...

[Mudsimus]

Pity the fool that calls that a hijack...

[Ivanb]

This note goes out to everyone here.

 

I must apologise to Johan for the comments above as some facts that I had and commented against are not just as to the position that Johan now holds.

 

I must say I appreciate all comments good or bad and we all know they assist in many ways for the truth to come out to all potential users or those just interested in what is going on.

 

As I said to Johan in a pm to him I apologise all I would like is honest opinion wihtout blatent slating or derogatory comments.

 

My apologies again and let this forum grow from strength to strength.

[Hendrik Petoors]

Ivanb you have nothing to apologise about. Critics you will always have because as a product distributor you WILL always live in a glasshouse. At least you advertise on the hub as a paying advertisor. Not like certain other people who insist their way of building wheels is the only way and advertise their concerns like cheapskates in their signature area. They also blatantly .... against Hub rules, advertise their workshops on normal posting space and do not even attempt to take out an advertisement. subscription.

[Johan Bornman]

Ivan, you are a big man. Thank you.

 

JB

[bruce]

This note goes out to everyone here.

 

I must apologise to Johan for the comments above as some facts that I had and commented against are not just as to the position that Johan now holds.

 

I must say I appreciate all comments good or bad and we all know they assist in many ways for the truth to come out to all potential users or those just interested in what is going on.

 

As I said to Johan in a pm to him I apologise all I would like is honest opinion wihtout blatent slating or derogatory comments.

 

My apologies again and let this forum grow from strength to strength.

 

Ivanb I think the issue that I have is that you guys are making claims without properly published research.  There are numerous biomechanical and medical science journals in which to publish findings that can then be peer reviewed - not only in terms of the conclusions drawn, but also in terms of testing methodology.

 

The usual path that is followed is that someone tries something new.  From various pieces of anecdotal evidence, it "appears" that this new technique or piece of equipment does in fact provide some improvements.  While this technique or piece of equipment may appear to violate various laws of physics, it should be investigated - because it may improve efficiency or economy in a process.

 

It is important to understand that the "burden of proof" lies with the party making the claims, not the party or parties disputing this new invention.  Now, "proof" means proper scientific testing!  Not more anecdotal evidence.  Your published research acknowledges this very fact!

 

Proper scientific testing has a well defined methodology - it is this way because it has to be in order to sift out real progress from dead ends.

 

Going to war with your so-called "scientists" (i.e. people that have an understanding of the fundamental laws of physics) when you are still fundamentally in the anecdotal evidence phase is not going to win you any arguments with the scientific community.  And banging your drum and shouting that science is wrong and doesn't understand well, millions have done this before you and failed - as I have said before, the reason why the laws of physics are called laws is because they are exactly that.

 

When an invention comes along that appears to confound that laws of physics, it is because our understanding of the mechanics of the invention is not complete, not because the laws of physics are wrong.

 

I personally am prepared to accept that q-rings may improve efficiency or economy, thereby allowing more of the power produced by the body to reach the road.  I have offered to test the concept myself - I ride with powermeters and computrainers so I have access to tools that would allow some evidence based testing, rather than all the experience based testing that you are currently performing. 

[fatcyclist]

bruce: I have also personally asked BikeMax if he would be keen to do a test with and without Qrings on the set of athletes and unfortunately at the time Peter couldn't commit. It would still be a good idea, and can be easily monitored in a environment like Sports Science Institute with the aid of power meters.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again though. The whole "train with power crowd" comes across rather agressive in their approach in stating "training with power is the only way" and "if you don't train with power you will never reach your potential". Please don't forget not everyone has R6000 upwards to spend on one of the devices, be it PowerTap, SRM, Polar etc. This shouldn't stop them from looking at lower cost alternatives to improve their performance.

 

Just my 2c