Rugby...

[Lexx]

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/lions-give-coetzee-quota-headache-20160801

 

Very interesting.

KP is stirring the pot lekker.

And he Is asking a fair question.

[HappyMartin]

Everybody talking about making all the lions Bokke. Well a couple of years ago, they also said the same thing about the Bulls. And that also didn't worked out so great for the Bokke.  

I am a Lions fan and have had season tickets for the past three seasons but I agree with you totally. It's not a matter of making all the lions Springboks but of getting the Springboks to play more like the Lions. Of course I think players like Combrink, EJ and Faf plus a few others should be considered for Sprinbok positions but we can't leave out players like Etsbeth.

 

The point is if the lions can do so can others.

[Frosty]

This is something I've noticed about the NZ teams, they all play a very similar game. This makes it far easier for coaching when called up to play for All Blacks. 

The structure in NZ allows it. The AB's are at the pinnacle of rugby in NZ, and every team/player/coach/administrator aspires to get there. Priority #1 is to the AB's.

 

The AB coach, in this case Steve Hansen, gets the buy in from the 5 franchise coaches on the type of rugby they want to play - it has been this way for many years.

 

I first heard about it from Zin-Zan Brooke when he was coaching players at schoolboy level, and they had a documentary on him. Besides the comments about how rugby should be played at schoolboy level, he also mentioned how it works from the top down.

 

Any player should be able to walk into the team and with minor adjustments should fit in.

 

Australia did something similar with their cricket team, and were extremely successful prior to appointing Mickey Arthur, and it went pear-shaped from there. Pair an established player with a newbie, with the objective of that player replacing the experienced one when he retires.

• For the captains it worked as follows (is easier to pickup): Allan Border/Mark Taylor, Mark Taylor/Steve Waugh, Steve Waugh/Ricky Ponting, Ricky Ponting/Michael Clarke, and then it fell apart shortly afterwards.

[Frosty]

Everybody talking about making all the lions Bokke. Well a couple of years ago, they also said the same thing about the Bulls. And that also didn't worked out so great for the Bokke.  

Initially is was about Lions not represented at Bok level, which only changed recently. Rightly so. I agree that it's not healthy to have the majority of players from one union, and it's hardly ever the case (in most sports).

 

For me the biggest problem with having an ex-franchise/provincial coach as Bok coach is the bias to former players under their management. These players may understand the way the coach wants to play, but the coach doesn't necessarily know (or want to know) who is the best possible play in each position. 

 

It happened under too many former coaches, who stepped up from provincial coach to national coach.

[Shebeen]

lank technical question, and am glad it had no bearing on the outcome.

 

Try scored by Sopoaga, initial reaction by TJ is that it is out(puts flag up immediately - but can't actually see the grounding directly). Video evidence is not conclusive because the touchline is not in view when ball is grounded, but he was well over the touchline when it did.

No reverse angle view used(ie. couldn't see if/when his feet went out at all).

 

I thought it was very lean evidence to award a try, and the problem is that they now go on evidence only. Using intuition you could judge that it was probably not a try.

 

Try/no try?

[Mntboy]

 

 

Very true. But I see AC praises the stormers attack in the same breath as the Lions. The more he talks the more I realize how doff he is. We all want more Lions in the bok team, but actually the situation is not very healthy (having only 1 decent SA team). You can't take almost the entire Lions team and give them a new coach and different gameplan and expect the same results. AC has to get the Lions coaches involved somehow

 

Lions have finally found that balance between attack, defence and tactical kicking. I think we have a real shot at winning the title, although needless to say it's not going to be easy

Agree with you that the Lions have a shot at winning and I sincerely hope that they do.

 

As for the attack of the Stormers. Personally I think it's the second best in SA but it's nowhere near as evolved or refined as that of the Lions. In Fleckie we have a willing coach but his attack plans need testing against the Kiwi sides or it won't improve in the way it needs too imho. So AC isn't entirely wrong just betraying a bias I think.

 

As for team selection please see my response to HM below.

 

This is something I've noticed about the NZ teams, they all play a very similar game. This makes it far easier for coaching when called up to play for All Blacks.

Definitely. All the Kiwi sides play alike. Each franchise seems to accentuate one or two particular elements a bit more but in general the Kiwi teams play like the AB's.

 

I am a Lions fan and have had season tickets for the past three seasons but I agree with you totally. It's not a matter of making all the lions Springboks but of getting the Springboks to play more like the Lions. Of course I think players like Combrink, EJ and Faf plus a few others should be considered for Sprinbok positions but we can't leave out players like Etsbeth.

 

The point is if the lions can do so can others.

Agree with you. AC has a balancing act that he needs to perform taking into account various factors and pick a squad and a match day 23 from that squad.

 

It would however help enormously if all of that squad was used to the game plan instead of having to adjust to a new one for the National team. We really need to copy NZ in that respect.

 

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[leeubok]

Well at least AC has started to correct some mistakes his predecessor made. HM didn't include any Lions players in his WC team last year. NOT ONE. NADA. ZILCH. F0KKOL.

 

My only worry is as I've said before, AC's gameplan will surely be the same as his WP one. And we all know it was built around solid defence, nowhere near the running rugby we want today. So picking Lions players but then instructing them to play a different gameplan will be counter productive. 

 

If you take the lions team, where would you make changes for the boks?

 

1. D Smit. Been scrumming like a man possessed. Beast is over the hill and seem more interested in arguing with the ref

2. Marx. No contest here. Pity AC had a brainfart and made teletubbie his captain

3. Julian. No contest here

4. Etzebeth. 

5. Mostert or PSDT would do

6. Kriel. No contest here

7. Open. I'd pick Duane here

8. WW. Although Duane is most probably AC's first choice.

9. Faf. No contest here

10. Elton. Has now proven he's got what it takes.

11. Skosan. Has improved immensely over the last few years, one of the fastest wings and best finishers around

12. Rohan. So much better than Duh Duh and forms a good combination with Mapoe

13. Mapoe. Keep the combination with Rohan

14. Combrinck. No contest here

15. Open for suggestions. Jesse Kriel? As long as it is NOT Willie! Vd Walt or Andries Coetzee wouldn't let a team down either.

 

I may be biased as a Lions supporter, but in all honestly I think there are only 3 or so players that would improve this team. My team is also picked purely on merit.

[Mntboy]

 

 

Well at least AC has started to correct some mistakes his predecessor made. HM didn't include any Lions players in his WC team last year. NOT ONE. NADA. ZILCH. F0KKOL.

 

My only worry is as I've said before, AC's gameplan will surely be the same as his WP one. And we all know it was built around solid defence, nowhere near the running rugby we want today. So picking Lions players but then instructing them to play a different gameplan will be counter productive.

 

If you take the lions team, where would you make changes for the boks?

 

1. D Smit. Been scrumming like a man possessed. Beast is over the hill and seem more interested in arguing with the ref - Talented and would be deserving but Nyakane and Kitshoff and both deserve further opportunity before Smit.

2. Marx. No contest here. Pity AC had a brainfart and made teletubbie his captain - Seems you have all but forgotten Bizzie, has been playing well in France for Montpellier. Happy to have Marx on the bench.

3. Julian. No contest here - Agreed.

4. Etzebeth. - Agreed.

5. Mostert or PSDT would do - Why on earth do you want to drop the best tight forward from the Ireland series? PSDT ahead of Mostert who would play off the bench.

6. Kriel. No contest here - Agreed

7. Open. I'd pick Duane here - Agreed. Duane co captain, to take over from WW, when he is off the field.

8. WW. Although Duane is most probably AC's first choice. - Agreed. WW Also my choice for captain.

9. Faf. No contest here - Agreed.

10. Elton. Has now proven he's got what it takes. - Agreed.

11. Skosan. Has improved immensely over the last few years, one of the fastest wings and best finishers around - Habana to start with Skosan on the bench for the last quarter when the backs can do with an injection of pure pace.

12. Rohan. So much better than Duh Duh and forms a good combination with Mapoe - Agreed but only because Serfontein is injured and De Allende is out of form. Frans Steyn and Johan Goosen also options.

13. Mapoe. Keep the combination with Rohan - Agreed but he is also the best 13 at the moment so no real need for change.

14. Combrinck. No contest here - Agreed. Gives a strong kicking option as well (tactically and for goal). (You know that though)

15. Open for suggestions. Jesse Kriel? As long as it is NOT Willie! Vd Walt or Andries Coetzee wouldn't let a team down either. - Once again Frans Steyn and Johan Goosen are possible options here as well. Both have been incredibly good for their respective clubs. Jesse Kriel is also definitely an option too. As is Coetzee.

 

I may be biased as a Lions supporter, but in all honestly I think there are only 3 or so players that would improve this team. My team is also picked purely on merit.

I think you're being quite biased towards your favorite domestic team there LB. See my comments in the quotation re team.

 

The critical thing that AC needs to achieve aside from his transformation agenda should be to get the franchises to play as the Boks. However that means that a style of play needs to be chosen and stuck with. Our Kick Chase with Ball in hand combo isn't cutting it and needs to go to a ball in hand only game plan as per the Lions example. Only I am none too sure that AC is necessarily willing to fight that fight.

 

 

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[leeubok]

Some good points there Mntboy. At 1 I wouldn't mind Kitshoff, but Nyakane has done very little to warrant a spot. 

Bissie - Eish I don't know. I'll admit I haven't seen him play in ages. But I don't like his attitude (I'm bigger than the game) and I just feel there are several young and talented options at home that could serve the boks just as well. 

PSDT - I only went for Mostert because I'm biased towards the lions. But agree that PSDT is probably first choice

Habana - again, I can't say that I've seen him play lately. Last I saw of him was in the WC. Again, same as Bissie, I think we've got enough local talent to fill that spot. Habana can enjoy his retirement package oversees.

Goosen and Fransie - could be useful as utility backs, they can both cover several backline positions. Might be good to put 1 of them at fullback.

 

I'm not a big fan of selecting overseas based guys where we've got good talent at home. I've probably said this before but the experience argument doesn't do it for me. HM's experienced boks in last year's WC proves my point. 

 

We will never get all the franchises to play the same style. AC must just decide on his style and then select the players he thinks will fit best. No use selecting all the lions players and you tell them to either kick the ball or run straight into defenders. I'm not convinced AC is the right guy for the job yet. And his assistants doesn't inspire much confidence either. If he had a Mitchell or Jones as an assistant it could work well

[Frosty]

Did anyone watch "The Breakdown" last night on SS (channel 206) - the NZ rugby show? Always interesting to see an out-of-SA view on our rugby.

 

While they all said the 'Canes are overwhelming favourites, the way they describe the Lions makes me think they're trying to hide their "uncertainty" for the final on Saturday. Travelling and turnovers are the two weak points of the Lions, according to their analysis, yet they also say the Lions have beaten 4 NZ teams this year. Had it been in Jhb (the final), the result would be unknown.

 

They also quoted Fleck's quote about being disadvantaged by not playing the NZ teams in this year's competition. Justin Marshal said, "they wouldn't have reached the knockout rounds if they did play the NZ teams".

 

However, when they talk about the Springboks, it's a different story all together. Here's why:

• The Lions are described as a team that plays like them (NZ style rugby), but they also have the big, strong guys up front (strong Bok attribute). It is hard to try compete with their physical ability, and even worse because they can run the ball too. It's this mix of brute and flair that they think is what could challenge the AB's in the future.
   
• However, the rest of the SA franchises, are unable to play the running style the NZ teams (and Lions) are capable of. How do the Springboks incorporate the playing style of the Lions, with players that don't know how to do it? They referred back to early 2000's when the Springboks tried to play an expansive style (was actually mid-2000's before they won the 2007 RWC).

They referred to the politics/quotas (2019 RWC team being comprised of 50% players of colour). You could see they were shaking their heads in disbelief that politics can be allowed to interfere. Anyway, it is what it is and there's not much we can do. AC has to comply with the quota system and I can't imagine him getting results (we demand) and also keep the government plonkers happy.

['Dale]

No South African team has won a playoff game in 10 attempts in NZ, and not since the Crusaders, on a freezing Canberra night in 2000, has a team won a final out of its own country.

 

READ MORE HERE
 

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/blogs/tony-johnson/In_the_end_may_the_best_team_win

[HappyMartin]

Have a table at the Rusty Lady in Kensington tomorrow to watch the final with our usual crowd of season ticket holders.

[Frosty]

Shall be wearing my Leeutjies jersey with #pride (in Kleinmond) tomorrow, and for the rest of the weekend if they win.

 

 

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['Dale]

Rugby365 predicion

 

We are going to go against the bookmakers and suggest the Lions will break the Hurricanes hearts - but by a single score, try or penalty.

[scotty]

Good luck Lions, make history by been the 1st SA team to win final on NZ soil. 

[Guest notmyname]

Eeeeek!!! Leeutjies!