First Tokai MTB AGM

[marko35s]

 

LOL f=€÷&ing LOL

Good rebuttal, are you by any chance a lawyer?

[Flowta]

Good rebuttal, are you by any chance a lawyer?

 

No, Engineer, you? :-)

[marko35s]

 

No, Engineer, you? :-)

Jujitsu coach and general layabout.

[Flowta]

OK, I'll swing my handbag. (A full 12 gauge shotgun ammo bag)

 

It seems to me that the small downhill fraternity got tired and frustrated with the slow pace of things in Tokai and they then decided to walk away from Tokai. Their contributions to building days stopped dead and they stopped riding in Tokai in any numbers. I understand that. They went elsewhere and on private property started building what they wanted, until that relationship soured.

 

But the ordinary Tokai riders, those that ride up and down, the kids, the wives, the beginners, meanwhile got on with it.They re-built trails that were totally destroyed by the logging operations, trails that suited the few thousand ordinary souls that come through Tokai every weekend. They raised money, paid for labour, contributed sweat, negotiated and built bridges with other stakeholders. They managed with great difficulty to get permission, within a framework of near impossible restrictions placed on them by SANParks, to build legal trails in a National Park (something you should not underestimate). In fact, if it wasn't for the diehards, Tokai would have had nothing left, no unfinished Snake Trails even. The downhill track would have been permanently closed because it was not approved and not justifiable from a conservation and erosion point of view. The new AM trail off Boulders would never have been approved or built. All that is thanks to the intervention of some of these people that now get called incompetent

 

Unfortunately the trails are not to the liking of the hardcore downhill dudes, many of whom are now also riding the latest craze, enduro! They want to build what they want to build. Great stuff, I support that. However, in Tokai, they have to do it legally, and their track record in that regard is a bit tarnished with ongoing illegal trails getting opened and jumps built outside of the official approved areas. That is the stuff that will get all of us banned from Table Mountain forever! Somewhat like some private landowners put a stop to uncontrolled building on their land.

 

So, now we have some disgruntled riders that would like a bigger say in how things are done in Tokai because they feel excluded. They of course have the right to vote people of their choice onto a committee that will hopefully look after their interests. All fine and well, except that in the process some rather negative things get said about Tokai and the regulars that have stood by the place through thick and thin. I don't like that. If you have to belittle someone else, it says something about your own stature.

 

I will support change if it will be for the better. Prove to me that you will be able to get a better relationship with SANParks (essential stuff), better trails within legal and environmental guidelines, that you will look after all mountainbikers and their needs and that you won't destroy the very most precious thing about Tokai: The mere fact that we are allowed to ride there in the first place.

 

Then I'll vote for you!

 

Tell me about the new AM trail off boulders? The only other trail I know of off boulders has been there for years

[Flowta]

Jujitsu coach and general layabout.

 

Sounds good

[Guest OldFlow]

Dude, I'm not including someone we both know from somewhere else... I'm talking about the primary instigators.

 

I know J wants good trail. As do we all. It's how the "leaders" of the group go about things that is a bit unsavoury.

 

 

+1 What Flowta said....

 

Define unsavoury? Seems they want open, transparent elections to get a (democratically elected) new committee instated with a broader rider representation, more open minded and publicly transparent approach. How is that unsavoury?

 

You talk about a handful of people. Read all the replies to just this thread. The pattern is always that any opinion (both negative and positive.. what's that all about?) which differs to those of the very small band of "followers", gets met with a barrage of defensive vitriol. With that much energy spent blocking, deflecting and dissing anyone elses perspectives, it's no wonder you assume that the dissatisfied group is only a small handful of downhillers. The reality is that it is a large body of riders from a wide and random spread of riding preferences, wheel sizes, genders, ages and skill level. They all have their own views and opinions but one common denominator is that they all love Tokai, are dismayed at how things have been going for the past couple of years and believe that we could and should be seeing better, WITHIN the current constraints.

Edited February 1, 2014 by OldFlow

[Capricorn]

+1 What Flowta said....

 

Define unsavoury? Seems they want open, transparent elections to get a (democratically elected) new committee instated with a broader rider representation, more open minded and publicly transparent approach. How is that unsavoury?

 

You talk about a handful of people. Read all the replies to just this thread. The pattern is always that any opinion (both negative and positive.. what's that all about?) which differs to those of the very small band of "followers", gets met with a barrage of defensive vitriol. With that much energy spent blocking, deflecting and dissing anyone elses perspectives, it's no wonder you assume that the dissatisfied group is only a small handful of downhillers. The reality is that it is a large body of riders from a wide and random spread of riding preferences, wheel sizes, genders, ages and skill level. They all have their own views and opinions but one common denominator is that they all love Tokai, are dismayed at how things have been going for the past couple of years and believe that we could and should be seeing better, WITHIN the current constraints.

 

Johno: its from working within the constraints that have led the situation to where it is. Demonising the other 'group' doesn't change that fact. TokaiMTB is not in control that is the bottom line. changing figure heads is not going to change the constraints. But should there be a changing of the guard, i just hope it results in those with diplomacy and patience, that is those with the actual ability to work with both sides of the problem to further the rider cause. Mot the uncouth turd throwing that's posing as the call for changing of the guard.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Capricorn

[DJR]

Tell me about the new AM trail off boulders? The only other trail I know of off boulders has been there for years

 

The right hand line of the 3 possible ways down Boulders.

 

About 2 years ago some unauthorised building started on the downhill "Boulders" section. It was stopped willingly and in return proper permission was sought. What resulted was the almost total re-building of that section of the DH line into a longer better line that AM and Trail guys could ride too. This was the first time the downhillers and the XC guys collaborated and actually built the line together. It is still a great ride and a testament of what co-operation can achieve.

[Vince]

Sanparks had oddly been the common denominator in all the previous attempts at getting "what we want". Meurant has tried, Cobus has tried, now I am trying but the truth is, these attempts are a lot like South African rugby. If a game is lost, hang the coach and start again.

 

I am however struggling to see which game it was that has attracted this attention. All the demands were met from this group to repair the DH track. Not only was permission granted to fix the track from top to bottom but these demands were exceeded by adding the lines never before included in the map which dictated what is legal or illegal trails in the park. How can you still quote incompetence? Or is your problem only with the volunteer module which has sustained this activity in the park since 1995?

 

I understand contract labour can be used and this has been allowed in future funding for Tokai. In 2011 I contacted Bennet personally and explained the constraints that would probably be imposed until 2013 when we can lift the low-level maintenance restriction, and start building based on the approvals we had negotiated.. At that stage I was hopeful but also careful not to over-promise as historically we have been duped by the hanging carrot before - and if you can't learn from other's experiences then you are actually not winning.

 

Duane, I still have the minutes you sent when I presented the plan for the rebuilt Snake trails. I consulted you and Vince and approval was given.. "Fine, just build it!" The urgency to rebuild was as a result of the downhill being used by all riders as the Snake trails were closed for nearly 8 months.

 

Just to indicate that this is business as usual, the election was always supposed to happen. Sure, an interim committee was established to meet the requirements of the broader goal, the TMMTB forum, and to take care of admin like opening bank accounts etc. A spot on this committee was open to Vince and Duane, but following an unexpected and abrupt public notification to say that they want no further dealings with Tokai due to the timeframes associated, these spots are still open to be filled.

 

So is the lack of proper representation a result of my actions? I don't know.

Is the public election required? Yes it is. It could have also just been a ratification process with the public, but if general elections are now the flavour of the month, then so be it. I welcome the public's input.

 

It remains a a real shame that the people calling for change think the way to achieve votes is to make others look bad without full disclosure of the events leading up to their dissatisfaction.

 

I am not too fussed if I am not elected, I wish the new committee luck.

 

 

Most of this is not true

[LazyTrailRider]

OK, so I'll give my concise opinion after having waded through everything that's been said.

 

This problem contains several subsets of seemingly complex problems at several levels, and everyone's debating (and fighting) at these levels, when instead I think it's possible that all this complexity can be eliminated in one fell swoop with a single underlying action.

 

We don't have a trail problem here, we have an authority problem. Bitching and moaning about which trails are built, how they flow, who's responsible for them, who gets input into how they're designed, is all irrelevant. Forget about the trails.

 

What is needed is a single person at the appropriate level of authority to *tell* Parks (not ask them) to hand over control of the mountain biking trails to the mountain bikers, with the appropriate business case (its fundamentals already exist) as backing. It shouldn't be a debate, it should be an executive decision.

 

This may seem like a pipe dream at first glance (especially if you've been caught up fighting problems at the lower levels), but it may very well be doable. Spending precious energy fighting about trails is not going to get anyone there though. Instead, maybe we should be directing this energy into lobbying someone with real power, not some committee. Alan Winde is likely a good starting point.

[Vince]

I would just like to say that I'm not a great fan of this forum as it allows people to make statements with no factual basis while hiding behind a username, Here are some facts:

I have no hidden agendas, just the desire to get world class trails in Tokai.

I have never said I didn't want Deon to be part of the Tokai Committee (its not up to me anyway)

As from the 18th Feb there will be a committee representing the riders of Tokai.

You can nominate and elect anyone you like

 

The people disrespecting me on this forum either don't know me or are extremely gullible.

[two hands]

I'm of the same opinion as Vince.

 

The Hub can and has done a lot to create a community of riders, as have the trails of Tokai brought many people together united in a love of mountain biking. The thing to remember is that it's not a good place for constructive and complex action. It rewards trolls and anonymous kneejerk responses.

 

Tokai is a complex situation and polarising statements and posionous vitriol does nothing. Action requires a team of fundraisers, lobbyists, technical consultants, labour and maybe even a politician or two

 

At the heart of it is a shared passion for riding and creating quality trails. If we can agree that how we ride is irrelevant, then we can focus the passion and intent in the right direction - at working with SANParks and TMNP to develop Tokai into a world-class venue. Through a lot of hard work from a lot of people (not me) over many years, both on the ground and in countless meetings, we are in a position to affect change. Let's put the bullsh*t behind us and look at the future.

 

I am looking forward to the 18th. Not because it will be a showdown. But because it will be a starting point for what we can do as a collective.

 

I'd love to see Vince, Deon et al on the committee. That would be a team to make some waves and a strategy for moving forward. Judging by the posts on this thread I reckon there is more in common among different 'factions' than we think.

 

All have expressed a desire to see a working group elected that is both wary of and skilled at negotiating with the bureaucracy that exists among the stakeholders of Tokai. All have also admitted that they'd like to get expert trailbuilders in to assess the current work and provide solutions for the future. Also, if you read between the lines, there's an admission that they would like to serve in such a working group, if elected.

 

We're not quite sitting around a campfire singing kumbaya, but we're not that far off. Let's get as many people as we can to Chrysalis on the 18th. Leave egos at home. And hear different viewpoints.

[Flowta]

 

 

The right hand line of the 3 possible ways down Boulders.

 

About 2 years ago some unauthorised building started on the downhill "Boulders" section. It was stopped willingly and in return proper permission was sought. What resulted was the almost total re-building of that section of the DH line into a longer better line that AM and Trail guys could ride too. This was the first time the downhillers and the XC guys collaborated and actually built the line together. It is still a great ride and a testament of what co-operation can achieve.

 

I'll have to go back and look tomorrow. I know the DH line, boulders line and the one in the middle (starts on a corner).

 

Maybe I'm blind, too stuffed etc. but must have missed iy completely

[marko35s]

 

Sounds good

And we just had conclusive proof that it really is a small world.

[(Deon)]

I'll have to go back and look tomorrow. I know the DH line, boulders line and the one in the middle (starts on a corner).

 

Maybe I'm blind, too stuffed etc. but must have missed iy completely

No you are right, that is the AM trail that has been on the cards for inclusion on TMNP's map since 2005. It was supposed to be reviewed in 2010 which never happened. I have the old map that was drawn up in preparation for the review, the dates on it are clear.

 

What DJR is surely referring to is that this trail is now included on the latest reprint of the TMNP trail map, along with DH0, DH3 and DH4. Not sure if you know but if it is not on the map, it may not exist.

[Guest OldFlow]

Johno: its from working within the constraints that have led the situation to where it is. Demonising the other 'group' doesn't change that fact. TokaiMTB is not in control that is the bottom line. changing figure heads is not going to change the constraints. But should there be a changing of the guard, i just hope it results in those with diplomacy and patience, that is those with the actual ability to work with both sides of the problem to further the rider cause. Mot the uncouth turd throwing that's posing as the call for changing of the guard.

I'm of the same opinion as Vince.

 

The Hub can and has done a lot to create a community of riders, as have the trails of Tokai brought many people together united in a love of mountain biking. The thing to remember is that it's not a good place for constructive and complex action. It rewards trolls and anonymous kneejerk responses.

 

Tokai is a complex situation and polarising statements and posionous vitriol does nothing. Action requires a team of fundraisers, lobbyists, technical consultants, labour and maybe even a politician or two

 

At the heart of it is a shared passion for riding and creating quality trails. If we can agree that how we ride is irrelevant, then we can focus the passion and intent in the right direction - at working with SANParks and TMNP to develop Tokai into a world-class venue. Through a lot of hard work from a lot of people (not me) over many years, both on the ground and in countless meetings, we are in a position to affect change. Let's put the bullsh*t behind us and look at the future.

 

I am looking forward to the 18th. Not because it will be a showdown. But because it will be a starting point for what we can do as a collective.

 

I'd love to see Vince, Deon et al on the committee. That would be a team to make some waves and a strategy for moving forward. Judging by the posts on this thread I reckon there is more in common among different 'factions' than we think.

 

All have expressed a desire to see a working group elected that is both wary of and skilled at negotiating with the bureaucracy that exists among the stakeholders of Tokai. All have also admitted that they'd like to get expert trailbuilders in to assess the current work and provide solutions for the future. Also, if you read between the lines, there's an admission that they would like to serve in such a working group, if elected.

 

We're not quite sitting around a campfire singing kumbaya, but we're not that far off. Let's get as many people as we can to Chrysalis on the 18th. Leave egos at home. And hear different viewpoints.

 

Thank God! Thanks two hands... I was swearing a few seconds ago after I pushed the wrong button and deleted the response I had been typing, dumbass. Then you posted that, which is very much my sentiment.

 

I don't understand all the venomous replies. If you read all the posts from the likes of Vince, Duane and myself, not one of us has said we want Deon off the committee. If anything, we want to bolster his efforts by adding more heavyweight assistance to spread the considerable load. Makes me wonder a bit what the anger and resistance is all really about.

 

Duane even said he would nominate and vote for Deon. I feel the same, but every venomous and sarcastic reply makes me wonder more if that's the right thing or not. In order to improve things at Tokai, we really need to put aside these silly interpersonal feuds, find the common ground and move on.

 

I do believe though, that there should be seperation of duties. Deon is good at dealing with SANP and has been the interface for the past 3 years and in that respect he has played an important role. His trail building skills and lack of experience in that area are not what we need though, and the current system of using volunteers to do the shaping and building, as opposed to maintenance, needs to be seriously reviewed. Despite popular belief, we do have other options.

 

It is in all our interests to present a mutual front, not a factionalized one. Let's stop the character assassinations, get a stronger committee voted in and make Tokai great again.

 

There are many remarks in this thread referring to a "small group of downhillers" wanting change. This really is not the situation and I must certainly say that my experience is that the horrible divide between disciplines is currently narrower than ever before. More and more, the trails all over are morphing into trail, that through clever design, can be ridden and thoroughly enjoyed by all. Think JH, Welvanpas etc.

 

Let's start working together to get Tokai back up on the top of the MTB Bucket-List again.