tubed Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 I don't have the answer (other than take them to court to compel them, but for what?) but from I can see Sanparks see no need to listen to the community, let alone mtb as a disparate minority group. In the face of massive opposition regarding the felling of trees in Cecilia, they went ahead based upon what they deemed to be the right course of action. When it comes to land issues such as illegal land use as in IY and Sentinal in Hout Bay they have chosen the politically expedient and popular option and have refused to take action or withdrawn their actions and remained silent. They did something similar with the Chapmans Peak till plaza. Poaching outside my doorstep is big social issue, ie people need to eat, but not the syndicates. If I cast a line into Logies Bay/ Llandudno or Sandy Bay, I will get fined without a permit, but just beyond my line Sanparks turn a blind eye to the syndicate divers poaching each and every day. I suspect Sanparks is run form Pretoria and with the massive responsibility they have with Kruger, poaching of rhino and generally running a multi billion rand govmt department - when it comes to Table Mountain, all they plan to do is maintain and collect - certainly not take on any more responsibility. So they will continue to talk and make empty promises, but I dont think we should expect any initiative or movement from their side. To think otherwise would suggest that their has been a significant change in policy and leadership, which there has not been. Sorry to be negative - but I think we need to be realistic.
Rydogg Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 So what should I do if I get stopped on the mountain and they want to fine me?
Hairy Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 So what should I do if I get stopped on the mountain and they want to fine me?play the ignorance card?
DJR Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 So what should I do if I get stopped on the mountain and they want to fine me? Bring out your best German and your dumbest face!
kandui Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 No signage on Table Mountain indicates that a permit is required to cycle there.San Parks say, "Locals should know" is tenuous to say the least. I rode in Tokai this morning and a couple guys from Durbanville asked me where the single tracks were ( on our way down from the mast). Legitimate question as they were not familiar with the area.Not everyone is a local.In my opinion, signage tells you what is and what isn't allowed. If the signage shows a cyclist not crossed out, with no further info, what am I meant to deduce? If I get a mandate as Table Mountain Bikers to publicize the fact locally that an Activity Permit is required to cycle in the Park, fine, I'll do it. But no one from Parks has ever asked.Flip, it took 9 months to get permission to get the TM sign posted. The signs were meant to help people, were designed to be in line with San Parks signage and weren't going to cost them a cent. 9 months. Illegal land occupation, poaching and vagrancy are far more important issues that require all of San Park's meager resources. Why waste them on us? Give us what we ask for and let's us police ourselves.
DJR Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 ........................Give us what we ask for and let's us police ourselves. To add to this: I think everything the mountainbikers have asked for, both on the front of Table Mountain, as well as in Tokai) is: 1. Pretty reasonable.2. very unlikely to cause a conservation disaster.3. will cost Parks nothing4. will gain Parks many supporters5. will increase tourism6.will be good for Cape Town
Headshot Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 Can someone post a decent scan of one of the tickets they have handed out for "illegal riding" or pm me.. I will check for validity of the tickets and provide a legal opinion in due course. As I have said before SANP have a serious attitude problem. Ticketing people for swimming in dams instead of targeting muggers springs to mind again. Eish.
Headshot Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 It occurs to me that SANP have little or no business or PR skills. How can it be good business to ticket people for riding on a major international tourist attraction where there is no security or even a ticket office eg at Deer Park. Visitors will have no idea what the rules are, as will locals who are just occasional riders and decide on the spur to go for a ride there. The response Kandui got from them beggars belief. They appear to see us, the citizens as the enemy, rather than as customers who need to be served. They also have no idea how Capetonians relate to "their" mountain. They should as someone else suggested fence the park, put in a ticket office on Cableway road and Deer Park and make sure the place is safe. As it stands, we are paying for very very little. I have little respect for Parks from a conservation stand point either - the mess at Tokai being a case in point.
MTBeer Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 how exactly are they going to enforce the fines they issue. If I cycle on the mountain without any ID I can just give a false name...? I am not suggesting anyone does this.
Brogue Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 No signage on Table Mountain indicates that a permit is required to cycle there.San Parks say, "Locals should know" is tenuous to say the least. I rode in Tokai this morning and a couple guys from Durbanville asked me where the single tracks were ( on our way down from the mast). Legitimate question as they were not familiar with the area.Not everyone is a local.In my opinion, signage tells you what is and what isn't allowed. If the signage shows a cyclist not crossed out, with no further info, what am I meant to deduce?If I get a mandate as Table Mountain Bikers to publicize the fact locally that an Activity Permit is required to cycle in the Park, fine, I'll do it. But no one from Parks has ever asked.Flip, it took 9 months to get permission to get the TM sign posted. The signs were meant to help people, were designed to be in line with San Parks signage and weren't going to cost them a cent. 9 months.Illegal land occupation, poaching and vagrancy are far more important issues that require all of San Park's meager resources. Why waste them on us? Give us what we ask for and let's us police ourselves. In truth, SANParks pick on groups likely to be compliant to increase their revenue stream. Vagrants, land invaders and poachers are lawless and uncooperative by definition. MTB'ers just want to ride their bikes on OUR mountain so we'll get a stupid permit if it means they'll leave us in peace.
Flowta Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 I have a question with respect to the cost of the permit. I was just up in Plett/Knysna and obviously went to Harkerville A day permit only costs R35 as opposed to Tokai being R45 and a year permit is R195 compared to Tokai/Table Mountain being R430 Both are run by SANParks but that is a big discrepancy.
(Deon) Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 I have a question with respect to the cost of the permit. I was just up in Plett/Knysna and obviously went to Harkerville A day permit only costs R35 as opposed to Tokai being R45 and a year permit is R195 compared to Tokai/Table Mountain being R430 Both are run by SANParks but that is a big discrepancy.Yes, that is one of the points of discrepancy.. there are more as listed on their website which are more process related, but undeniable that some of the hoops being thrown our way are a lot higher than in other parts of the country. There will be answers to these in due course.. keep this in mind.
porqui Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 I have a question with respect to the cost of the permit. I was just up in Plett/Knysna and obviously went to Harkerville A day permit only costs R35 as opposed to Tokai being R45 and a year permit is R195 compared to Tokai/Table Mountain being R430 Both are run by SANParks but that is a big discrepancy. Remember you are living in South Africa and here things are different.Don't challenge just accept! Dare you to contact the main kahuna and ask him why. What's more that some maintenance must get done on Harkerville - who does it and who pays for that.I'm sure they have no volunteer group there.
DoubleDee Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 This will annoy most of the people posting here........ but here goes anyway! TMNP own all of the land, which they are kind enough to allow us to use! You are happy to pay ridiculous prices to park at Cavendish Square to go watch an expensive movie but moan when you have to pay to go and ride in what is most probably the best "nature reserve" in the world! What do you pay to ride at any commercial mountain bike trail park these days? Is the experience at any of the trails in TMNP comparable to any commercial mountain bike trail park? Some thoughts to ponder! Just thought I would throw the cat amongst the pigeons!
Hairy Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 This will annoy most of the people posting here........ but here goes anyway! TMNP own all of the land, which they are kind enough to allow us to use! You are happy to pay ridiculous prices to park at Cavendish Square to go watch an expensive movie but moan when you have to pay to go and ride in what is most probably the best "nature reserve" in the world! What do you pay to ride at any commercial mountain bike trail park these days? Is the experience at any of the trails in TMNP comparable to any commercial mountain bike trail park? Some thoughts to ponder! Just thought I would throw the cat amongst the pigeons!I thought they only MANAGED the Table Mountain Reserve .......
gkp Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 This will annoy most of the people posting here........ but here goes anyway! TMNP own all of the land, which they are kind enough to allow us to use! You are happy to pay ridiculous prices to park at Cavendish Square to go watch an expensive movie but moan when you have to pay to go and ride in what is most probably the best "nature reserve" in the world! What do you pay to ride at any commercial mountain bike trail park these days? Is the experience at any of the trails in TMNP comparable to any commercial mountain bike trail park? Some thoughts to ponder! Just thought I would throw the cat amongst the pigeons! DoubleDee, I don't think anyone will argue that we are lucky to have somewhere like the TMNP to ride in. It's a major feature that few world cities have. Not speaking for others but my particular gripe is: what do TMNP do? The answer is: very little. Go to Tokai, and some of the roads are in shocking shape, getting worse. Go to Table Mountain and the problem is the same - in fact their lack of maintenance causes massive stormwater damage every winter. I feel MTB'rs are just taken for a ride - we pay for permits and justify it by knowing it's worth paying for, but really we're ripped off. Try and ride at night (except for Tokai) and you are liable for a fine if they catch you - when did you hear of walkers on full moon evenings up to Lion's Head getting stopped? Or the worshippers who go up to Woodstock cave? Try to get something positive going and there's just an indolent attitude and stone-walling. Read the posts and sense the frustration. How some of the Hub guys who actually get involved with them retain their sanity, I just don't know. So, sure we are a lucky bunch, but what did we do wrong to get a landlord like SANParks?
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