General Zero Tolerance on drug offenders?

[Pure Savage]

Ban dopers......then invite known dopers. 

 

Strong stance against doping or just window dressing? 

 

A PR/Marketing department with more clout than the logistics/ethics department

[Pure Savage]

I'm not sure incarceration is the right example to use as there is no incarnation in this case.

 

I prefer the lawyer/doctor/accountant example - if any of these professionals get bust they are removed from their respective organisation and are no longer trusted in their field.

 

The penalty for doping is almost laughable - you don't get to race your bike for a while. That's the entire penalty - no racing your bike. You can ride all you like, shop,live, go on holiday, become a lawyer/doctor/accountant.

 

How do you expect rehabilitation when the punishment is an extended rest break?

Wish we could pin posts, or save as favourites.

[Pure Savage]

Both individuals were fined and did their time.

Any further complaining is just a storm in a tea cup. Or unnecessary whining.

 

The Epic drew a line in the sand.

It demonstrates a stance against dopping.

It my not be the harshest stance. It remains an action.

 

True, but you dont then go and invite dopers to ride your event. 

[TALUS]

Ban dopers......then invite known dopers. 

 

Strong stance against doping or just window dressing? 

My point exactly. Why make it a PR point but actively invite cheaters? Hoping for a win-win?

[Gen]

My point exactly. Why make it a PR point but actively invite cheaters? Hoping for a win-win?

Tapping into the ex top pro rider market..[emoji6]

[Jewbacca]

I think it was cool having Cadel and Hincapie here. Purito as well.

 

The dopers for life vs serving their ban etc is such a tiresome subject.

 

Dopers suck. They will also always be dopers. But having big names and past heroes at an SA event was pretty cool.

 

I would totally dig it if Lance came and did Epic or IM SA. 

 

If Floyd Llandis was his partner EVEN BETTER! As long as they wore that custard yellow Phonak kit......

 

They are both lousy lying dopers and always will be but seeing them here doing rad stuff would be cool.

 

Maybe they should be allowed to ride/race, but not win any prizes?

[carbon29er]

Sagan, van Averamat, Kittel, de Mare, Turbo Durbo...

Blew it right there. Both have had huge issues but have got away with it.

 

The other 3 will be a case of time will tell. Although Turbo Durbo has won one minor race and has a chance today. Nothing serious yet.

[rattlesnake]

I have a conflicted view on this, probably an incorrect one but a view nonetheless.

 

As a starting point my assumption is that most riders at the very top end of the sport are or probably have been doped as competing at the very highest level against dopers requires it... How else would you explain convicted dopers getting beaten in races right? I'm afraid I just don't believe in fairy tales, magicians and natural FTP's anything north of 6ish watts per kg.

 

If I am right and most of pro cycling is doped, Is that status ok? No. But is it something that can likely ever be addressed? I don't think so. This would mean that pro cyclists with international ambitions have a choice to make, dope and be competitive or don't dope and get washed out trying.

 

What is also interesting to me is that any pro, doped or not, would need a particularly big engine to start with to make the cut.... Which kind of makes me feel more ok about it, because these are superior athletes anyway right... a battle between equals!?

 

And this is where my view gets controversial I think... believing what I believe above, that to cut it at the top end as a pro, you have to dope - I don't feel hard done by when I think that ex pro dopers are racing epic, because I'm not certain that the current crop are clean to start.

 

But perhaps more hypocritically I have a huge issue with amateurs doping... particularly because the driver behind it is pure ego... guys who seek to patch their athletic ability or lazyness in training with money and to drugs to become something they're not.

 

My perception is that fewer amateurs dope and as a result you get guys buying race results with drugs.... Whereas in the pro peloton I think that drugs without a superior engine gets you squat.

 

Anyways I'd love to be able to reduce this argument to black and white... but life ain't always like that... sometimes its an uncomfortable grey.

 

NB (OPINION PIECE). 

[carbon29er]

I think it was cool having Cadel and Hincapie here. Purito as well.

 

The dopers for life vs serving their ban etc is such a tiresome subject.

 

Dopers suck. They will also always be dopers. But having big names and past heroes at an SA event was pretty cool.

 

I would totally dig it if Lance came and did Epic or IM SA. 

 

If Floyd Llandis was his partner EVEN BETTER! As long as they wore that custard yellow Phonak kit......

 

They are both lousy lying dopers and always will be but seeing them here doing rad stuff would be cool.

 

Maybe they should be allowed to ride/race, but not win any prizes?

Sums up the conflicted situation pretty well. It's great to have them but they suck. But let's give them cash because of what they achieved as dopers. Oh and BTW, dopers suck.

 

Now I am really confused.

[Eldron]

 

Dopers suck. They will also always be dopers. But having big names and past heroes at an SA event was pretty cool.

 

 

Surely there must be enough HEROES around without having to reort to dopers???

[carbon29er]

That statement is inaccurate or are you only referring to Grand Tours or only the TDF because there are a whole lot of new generation riders winning all over the place.

Not so much. Apart from Sagan who is just super human there are not that many new generation winners. Not enough to claim that doping has been defeated and the peloton is now clean.

 

I find the silence from the peloton about Sir and his dodgy TUEs and AV's 365 day form says more than anything that they are not alone and not so much old generation. Then look at how skinny all the contenders are and wonder why your average super model is positively fat by comparison and they are not riding bikes up mountains faster then known dopers ever did.

 

It's hard to argue with rattlesnake's post, to be competitive it's accepted they have to dope. Claiming the new generation is different is living with the fairies. And that is the BS that irritates me about cycling. I love the spectacle of bike racing and I don't care who dopes or doesn't. Just don't pretend it is what it is not.

 

Like the Epic, don't have a ban and not have a ban at the same time on some arbitrary date.

[Skubarra]

I have a conflicted view on this, probably an incorrect one but a view nonetheless.

 

As a starting point my assumption is that most riders at the very top end of the sport are or probably have been doped as competing at the very highest level against dopers requires it... How else would you explain convicted dopers getting beaten in races right? I'm afraid I just don't believe in fairy tales, magicians and natural FTP's anything north of 6ish watts per kg.

 

What is also interesting to me is that any pro, doped or not, would need a particularly big engine to start with to make the cut.... Which kind of makes me feel more ok about it, because these are superior athletes anyway right... a battle between equals!?

 

 

NB (OPINION PIECE). 

 

I'll say 2 things on that - one - We all know that there are pros out there doping who have not been caught, but to say "most" are doping is a pretty sweeping statement and would need some proof to be taken seriously.

 

The second is the misconception that doping levels the playing field because everyone is doing it, if you read the studies you'll see that some athletes bodies respond more to doping than others, so you and me might be equals before we both started doping but if your body is more responsive to doping it is not a level playing field anymore.

[Jewbacca]

Sums up the conflicted situation pretty well. It's great to have them but they suck. But let's give them cash because of what they achieved as dopers. Oh and BTW, dopers suck.

 

Now I am really confused.

 

 

Surely there must be enough HEROES around without having to reort to dopers???

I would definitely go and see guys like Lance and Floyd.

 

I don't think they should be able to win, but it would be cool to see them ride. 

 

It is confusing and that is the whole point. Despite knowing just how much rubbish they caused and how dishonest they were, they still hold a place in most cycle fans heart. Hate them, defend them, justify them whatever, guys would go and see them.

 

Riccardo Ricco paired with Michael Rasmussen..... boom! having a daily duel with the Lance/Floyd team chased hard by Vinakourov and Ulrich.... mmmmm mouth watering especially if you are an average rider who has enough money or backing to enter Epic.

 

Lance could stay on 2 weeks and do IM SA and get a 2 race package deal.

 

Let them race for whatever reason, but don't give them catagory prizes. Or they could have their own agelass 'shamed' cat.

 

Iron Man is a money making machine. May as well jump on board and accept that the winds of change are a blowing and make the most of it. 

 

 

[eddy]

What about doing the time for your crime?

 

 

If the penalty is 6 months, 2 years or 4 years, why should they not be allowed to compete once the time is done? Is that not how civilised society behaves? Rehabilitation being a major advance in mankind from medieval justice?

 

 

 

Agree with everything else, but there are a number of professions (and even just jobs) where a conviction carries lifelong implications.

 

For example, an attorney caught with fingers in the trust till can be struck off the roll and may never practice again. Ditto an estate agent or a teller convicted of a crime where dishonesty is a factor may never be able to work in a bank again. 

 

They are of course free do something else and maybe that is the same for a doping cyclist. Work in a bike shop or for a distributor, ride for fun but not as a professional again.

 

I dunno, also don't care particularly. I race my mates and have no ego invested in my cycling performance.

[carbon29er]

I'll say 2 things on that - one - We all know that there are pros out there doping who have not been caught, but to say "most" are doping is a pretty sweeping statement and would need some proof to be taken seriously.

 

The second is the misconception that doping levels the playing field because everyone is doing it, if you read the studies you'll see that some athletes bodies respond more to doping than others, so you and me might be equals before we both started doping but if your body is more responsive to doping it is not a level playing field anymore.

Your 2nd point is the point. It is a bigger advantage to some than others. And that why it is wrong and should not be allowed.

 

Your 1st point around proof is harder. I'm with rattlesnake. Most do. I have no proof.  In the same way the Guptas will never be convicted of bribing the people they bribe and few of those accepting bribes will ever be convicted of being corrupt. But I am 100% sure that the Gupta family did not create the wealth they have accumulated so very quickly without bribing those most of us know they have bribed. In some areas of life proof is hard to come by but that does not make one's suspicions invalid.

[Eldron]

I would definitely go and see guys like Lance and Floyd.

 

I don't think they should be able to win, but it would be cool to see them ride. 

 

It is confusing and that is the whole point. Despite knowing just how much rubbish they caused and how dishonest they were, they still hold a place in most cycle fans heart. Hate them, defend them, justify them whatever, guys would go and see them.

 

Riccardo Ricco paired with Michael Rasmussen..... boom! having a daily duel with the Lance/Floyd team chased hard by Vinakourov and Ulrich.... mmmmm mouth watering especially if you are an average rider who has enough money or backing to enter Epic.

 

Lance could stay on 2 weeks and do IM SA and get a 2 race package deal.

 

Let them race for whatever reason, but don't give them catagory prizes. Or they could have their own agelass 'shamed' cat.

 

Iron Man is a money making machine. May as well jump on board and accept that the winds of change are a blowing and make the most of it. 

 

 

 

Sadly this is exactly why dopers get free sh!t - because people like you (and plenty others) worhsip them regardless of their morals.

 

Each to their own - if that is your view so be it.

 

I get it. Much as I say I am no fan of famous people I still get a little weird around them.

 

I will continue yelling DOPER at dopers - you continue worhipping them - we're both happy.