W/kg ranges corresponding to PPA road seeding

[Pure Savage]

Agree, but these must surely be a few. And as said before 1 hill and they out the back of the group. The first 20km in a race group is not for fun riders.

Thats why when the race starts up Hellshoogte, the seeding does not really matter too much, your legs seed you. 

 

Like this weekend, I reckon you could suck wheel till half way. I just dont understand why people would want to cheat the system just to get dropped.

[Patchelicious]

Yeah I'm also a bit confused about your comparative data as shown. I don't see any comparison data between CPT and JHB at the same time period??

You are confused about the comparative data, because I didn't post any comparative data  

 

I simply posted my best efforts and where they happened to be. I specifically kept it to a minimum, because my single data set should become the focal point of the conversation, there are people here with access to much richer data and we should be looking at that, not some random knobs Strava blasts... I just wanted to stimulate a more real discussion, not become engulfed in my largely very subjective few PPOs.

 

To my credit, I was very explicit about those caveats in my original post.

[Patchelicious]

No, this threads lack of real studies is what makes it special.

Exactly, I cannot believe that nobody, especially neither of the two protagonists have posted some "Joe Frielesque" type study to either support or refute this altitude vs FTP discussion.

[Fat Boab]

You are confused about the comparative data, because I didn't post any comparative data

 

I simply posted my best efforts and where they happened to be. I specifically kept it to a minimum, because my single data set should become the focal point of the conversation, there are people here with access to much richer data and we should be looking at that, not some random knobs Strava blasts... I just wanted to stimulate a more real discussion, not become engulfed in my largely very subjective few PPOs.

 

To my credit, I was very explicit about those caveats in my original post.

 

Yip, got it (eventually....).

 

Maybe more people would share their data, if you kept it to where do the various max PPOs occur, rather than the values? (are people really that sensitive about their Watts?)

[Fat Boab]

Exactly, I cannot believe that nobody, especially neither of the two protagonists have posted some "Joe Frielesque" type study to either support or refute this altitude vs FTP discussion.

 

Just a few google keystrokes away......

[Escapee..]

Exactly, I cannot believe that nobody, especially neither of the two protagonists have posted some "Joe Frielesque" type study to either support or refute this altitude vs FTP discussion.

 

 

[Kona Kula]

Yip, got it (eventually....).

 

Maybe more people would share their data, if you kept it to where do the various max PPOs occur, rather than the values? (are people really that sensitive about their Watts?)

I have had a look at mine, and in the year I have been at Cpt, Every one of my peak values is higher than when I was in Jhb. Not sensitive about my data but have been looking for a simple way to pull it. Too lazy to type it out.

[eddy]

I think we are mostly clear that FTP at sea level will be higher......Mostly!

 

 

Nope. Ceteris Paribus, always.

 

Physiologically, we ALL need oxygen to operate aerobically and as there is more oxygen at sea-level than at altitude it is not surprising that the proven science shows that FTP diminishes with altitude. (*)  Therefore, all other things being equal, FTP at sea-level WILL be higher than at altitude.

 

(*) Imagine if yours increases with altitude how easily you could run up Mount Everest.

 

PS.

 

Incidentally, The "debate" between J Wakefield and V12 was an excellent example of Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot analogy which holds that the philosophic burden of proof lies with a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.

[Kona Kula]

Nope. Ceteris Paribus, always.

 

Physiologically, we ALL need oxygen to operate aerobically and as there is more oxygen at sea-level than at altitude it is not surprising that the proven science shows that FTP diminishes with altitude. (*)  Therefore, all other things being equal, FTP at sea-level WILL be higher than at altitude.

 

(*) Imagine if yours increases with altitude how easily you could run up Mount Everest.

 

PS.

 

Incidentally, The "debate" between J Wakefield and V12 was an excellent example of Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot analogy which holds that the philosophic burden of proof lies with a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.

Lol, the "mostly" referred to one or two individuals who decided that they would like to debate without proof. Which I am actually a huge fan of, without them we would not have flat earth theory which has significantly changed my life.

[carrera4s]

Just read through this from start to finish - sjoe, was harder than my FTP test of 3 weeks ago.

 

Maybe that's why my "training program" feels very light right now.  

 

Peak seeding:  9.8

W/kg at that stage: c 4.3

(This was after Stage 3, Jock Classic 2016).

 

Been off the bike for > a year.  Currently sitting at c 3.3 W/kg

[Fat Boab]

Yesterday while struggling to breath up a hill and looking at my Watts, I thought about this thread... and realised, that I have my own data. I regularly ride in both CPT and JHB, and chase segments in both areas.

 

So I decided to look at my various PPOs based on location. I then decided to share, at the risk of being mocked, but thought somebody should start. Im not strong enough to worry anybody, so who gives a crap if you share power data.

 

30sec = 840w - JHB

60sec = 691w - JHB

2min = 496w - JHB

3min = 470w - CPT

5min = 419w - CPT

10min = 345 - CPT

20min = 336w - CPT

 

These were all during races or chasing segments, so they are not true exact PPO targeted efforts. (e.g.: 60sec PPO was during 1m10 Strava segment)

 

These were all done outside on Stages Power on the same bike, none of these numbers are from IDTs or Wattbikes. None of these were done on the same ride, and the CPT rides happened between the JHB ones, so it wasn't a factor of getting stronger for either. Spread over a 12 month period.

 

So all I can deduce from my own stats is that being at sea level makes sustained power outputs easier. But short hard efforts doesn't make much difference.

 

Obviously this is not conclusive, but clearly pushing power for longer is easier for ME at sea level.

 

Note: I know that this isn't massively scientific, but at least I am putting some data (my own) behind my statement. This is not a water tight conclusion, just my observation. 

 

OK, I've waited until Friday to ask this question, but would you have an indication of your HR for the comparative and longer JHB and CPT segments? If so, would you like to share?

 

The reason I'm asking is to eliminate the postulate that maybe your cardio-vascular system wasn't working as hard during the JHB segments? (I know v little about use of power so I'm applying, incorrectly perhaps, a Conconi HR vs P graph consideration). 

[Escapee..]

OK, I've waited until Friday to ask this question, but would you have an indication of your HR for the comparative and longer JHB and CPT segments? If so, would you like to share?

 

The reason I'm asking is to eliminate the postulate that maybe your cardio-vascular system wasn't working as hard during the JHB segments? (I know v little about use of power so I'm applying, incorrectly perhaps, a Conconi HR vs P graph consideration). 

 

Lank chilled out in Cape Town bru

[V12man]

Exactly, I cannot believe that nobody, especially neither of the two protagonists have posted some "Joe Frielesque" type study to either support or refute this altitude vs FTP discussion.

Fat Boab posted enough..... you generally have to pay for the links to work on the journals sites...

[Patchelicious]

OK, I've waited until Friday to ask this question, but would you have an indication of your HR for the comparative and longer JHB and CPT segments? If so, would you like to share?

 

The reason I'm asking is to eliminate the postulate that maybe your cardio-vascular system wasn't working as hard during the JHB segments? (I know v little about use of power so I'm applying, incorrectly perhaps, a Conconi HR vs P graph consideration). 

 

To go and look for CPT best PPO + HR and then find the corresponding PPO + HR is going to be a schlep. It very manual, I don't have a data set thats downloaded that I can pivot. But let me go look...

 

Edit:

Max achieved 

2min = 496w - JHB - 207 bpm

3min = 470w - CPT - 201bpm

 

Not an expert on the Conconi or macaroni, but I can say that I struggle to get my HR over 200bpm in CPT, but in JHB it happens often on short efforts.

['Dale]

To go and look for CPT best PPO + HR and then find the corresponding PPO + HR is going to be a schlep. It very manual, I don't have a data set thats downloaded that I can pivot. But let me go look...

 

Edit:

Max achieved 

2min = 496w - JHB - 207 bpm

3min = 470w - CPT - 201bpm

 

Not an expert on the Conconi or macaroni, but I can say that I struggle to get my HR over 200bpm in CPT, but in JHB it happens often on short efforts.

 

 

Damn.

Your ticker can tick. 

[Fat Boab]

To go and look for CPT best PPO + HR and then find the corresponding PPO + HR is going to be a schlep. It very manual, I don't have a data set thats downloaded that I can pivot. But let me go look...

 

Edit:

Max achieved 

2min = 496w - JHB - 207 bpm

3min = 470w - CPT - 201bpm

 

Not an expert on the Conconi or macaroni, but I can say that I struggle to get my HR over 200bpm in CPT, but in JHB it happens often on short efforts.

 

You should take your missus with more often to CT.....  .

 

(No worries, I was just trying to apply some research methodology in questioning plausible postulates.....)