Chris Froome returns adverse analytical finding for Salbutamol

[Andrew Steer]

That was sarcasm, not anger? Suppose you get two types of "hot under the collars".

 

Did my sarcasm turn you on the way that Ramada turned Topper Harley on?

You know I love it when you defending Froome Dog 

[Andrew Steer]

And what way is that?

Putting a little juice back in from the off season because you were losing your edge late on in a Grand Tour?

 

Still ain't no test for that if done correctly. 

 

I do wonder if Chris possibly had a TUE for oral Salbutamol use sometime in the off season?

 

Anyways, enough speculation from me, let's see what Sky can pull out of their hat.

 

Going to be an interesting few weeks

[Eldron]

Putting a little juice back in from the off season because you were losing your edge late on in a Grand Tour?

 

Still ain't no test for that if done correctly.

 

I do wonder if Chris possibly had a TUE for oral Salbutamol use sometime in the off season?

 

Anyways, enough speculation from me, let's see what Sky can pull out of their hat.

 

Going to be an interesting few weeks

I'm not sure the maths stacks up on that - to get the total body level to double the permissable via one bag of blood would require that bag to have massive amounts of salbutamol in it.

 

We're on bitcoin territory here as well ????????

[Frosty]

Guess it is all still being investigated for all the reasons listed.

 

Banned substances are banned and thus if found guilty punishment has to be levied against the guilty.

 

I will wait for the verdict and see what happens from there. I have to just add that I am sure his data and testing is extremely closely inspected by everyone and the pressure of being under the microscope 24/7 would have seen my kidneys also fail from sheer stress nevermind what they will find in my bloodsteam... (disclaimer that this is not an admission of guilt to any substance abuse on my part)

 

As a FAN (deal with it) of his work I will be very sad if found guilty and sanctioned...

FWIW, Salbutamol is not listed as a banned substance, just so there's no confusion about this particular case.

 

#justsaying

[Andrew Steer]

I'm not sure the maths stacks up on that - to get the total body level to double the permissable via one bag of blood would require that bag to have massive amounts of salbutamol in it.

 

We're on bitcoin territory here as well

I hear you, from my understanding though the oral dose is way way higher than the inhaler... it's banned for that reason. It has an anabolic effect - so I'm guessing it's not double or triple the inhaler, but more like 10 times, but would need some clarity on that. The other thing is this reading would now be a combination of his inhaler and the possible oral dose taken in the off season...

 

It is 100% all speculation though... I don't know, but it's there, and it shouldn't be there, and the idea that he was winning the Vuelta while suffering kidney failure and asthma issues seems beyond ridiculously far fetched.

 

Hopefully the far smarter people out there will solve this little puzzle. 

[lechatnoir]

FWIW, Salbutamol is not listed as a banned substance, just so there's no confusion about this particular case.

 

#justsaying

 

no, but >1000ug will get you on the naughty step. legally speaking, of course. testosterone is also not in the list. #alsojustsaying #testes

[nickc]

I hear you, from my understanding though the oral dose is way way higher than the inhaler... it's banned for that reason. It has an anabolic effect - so I'm guessing it's not double or triple the inhaler, but more like 10 times, but would need some clarity on that. The other thing is this reading would now be a combination of his inhaler and the possible oral dose taken in the off season...

 

It is 100% all speculation though... I don't know, but it's there, and it shouldn't be there, and the idea that he was winning the Vuelta while suffering kidney failure and asthma issues seems beyond ridiculously far fetched.

 

Hopefully the far smarter people out there will solve this little puzzle. 

 

With the Vuelta being so close to Le Tour I am surprised they did not pick up anything assuming the levels found.

[SwissVan]

Yes, the Dr Swart test showed this HOWEVER, its was his PPO, NOT his sustained effort....

 

When people conflate 5min efforts with sustained 40min efforts to make a point, you need to ask why they are doing that.

 

http://www.bicycling.co.za/news-people/people/exclusive-q-bicyclings-jeroen-swart-chris-froomes-testing/

 

 

His 20min - 40min effort was 419w at 69,9kg, which works out to 5.9w/kg.

 

Again, I am NOT defending Froome, I am merely correcting intentionally misquoted information.

Thanks for the link, this is why I asked the question because everyone gets in a flap about 7W/ kg without putting it into perspective from a time point of view.

7W/kg for a few minutes is probably normal for a cyclist of his calibre ie at the top of the pro pile

[Andrew Steer]

Oral versus inhaled Salbutamol....

 

Oral dose for an adult for one day - as much as 16 000 micrograms (4 x 4mg)

 

Inhaler - 100 micrograms a puff

 

The maths maybe not a million miles out 

[Andrew Steer]

With the Vuelta being so close to Le Tour I am surprised they did not pick up anything assuming the levels found.

He was tested daily around the time of the positive... those samples must all have been under the limit, then this massive spike (at least a double up). It would be interesting to see the readings from the days before and after as well... would provide a little more transparency

 

My 2 cents

[Vetplant]

He was tested daily around the time of the positive... those samples must all have been under the limit, then this massive spike (at least a double up). It would be interesting to see the readings from the days before and after as well... would provide a little more transparency

 

My 2 cents

Bah, transparency from all involved in cycling... not gonna happen, you'd have a better chance of beating Sagan up the Koppenberg...

[Eldron]

Oral versus inhaled Salbutamol....

 

Oral dose for an adult for one day - as much as 16 000 micrograms (4 x 4mg)

 

Inhaler - 100 micrograms a puff

 

The maths maybe not a million miles out

For me there was never a question that he was taking oral Salbutamol. His levels were waaaay too high for puffing.

 

That said - let's see what the lab tests show. I'm fairly confident SKY have already done their homework and can repeatably get Chris to 2000 in a lab (otherwise he would not have stated his defence and looked so confident since the "anomaly".)

[Andrew Steer]

For me there was never a question that he was taking oral Salbutamol. His levels were waaaay too high for puffing.

 

That said - let's see what the lab tests show. I'm fairly confident SKY have already done their homework and can repeatably get Chris to 2000 in a lab (otherwise he would not have stated his defence and looked so confident since the "anomaly".)

 

Man this is a lekker big circus!

[Eldron]

Man this is a lekker big circus!

For sure! And waiting for the results before vomiting our opinions all over the place is boring as hell ????????????

[V12man]

For me the Salbutamol is not the problem...

 

Just like with Clen, which you would also most likely not take during and event (yet Contador tested positive for it), the big question is how it got into Chris, in such a large dose, during a grand tour.

 

I know a way how.

There is a subtle difference here:

 

Clenbuterol is NOT legal in any way - you cannot take it.

 

Inhaled Salbutamol is allowed without a TUE up to a max excreted concentration - and that is the problem:

 

We KNOW Chris is a diagnosed asthmatic - no doubt there. 

We know he took it - hell he admits it, and I have seen him do it in front of tv camera/s - on and off the bike.

We know that salbutamol clearance rates are VERY variable - even for the same person, depending on many factors - most of which are very difficult to replicate in a lab - at least with any reliability.

We know that inhaled salbutamol has no beneficial performance effects - in truth the contrary is true

 

We SUSPECT that oral salbutamol might have long term performance benefits ito weight loss etc - just like Clem - except for Clem we KNOW there are long term benefits - that has been proven - thus Clem is banned and Salbutamol is allowed - up to a fairly unscientifically determined maximum clearance concentration..... (I have never seen a document showing how they got to that number)

 

We KNOW that salbutemol clearance is very variable, especially during exercise - possibly hugely variable even within the same subject.

 

What we DONT KNOW is if it is possible to clear enough to fail the max level test by taking allowed dosages - and personally I suspect it is quite possible - especially when an athlete is dehydrated and not excreting much urine - but may well be clearing the normal rate - so if the kidney clears say 1000ng/hour, this would normally be diluted into 1l of urine - (these are just example numbers) - now drop the urine production to 25%, but keep the clearance the same, and it's easily possible to have VERY high urine concentrations of the clearance products of any number of drugs.

 

I have personally been in the himalaya and drunk over 4l of water a day, with a urinary output of very close to zero... perhaps 100ml a day - super concentrated is an understatement,,,, and I have read a lot of Griffith Pugh's early work on altitude related issues - and its well documented as a problem for mountaineers (both dehydration and highly concentrated urine).

 

I think this will be the tack that Chris's legal team takes - Normal inhaled dosage, dehydrated subject, normal salbutamol clearance rates, low urine production = high concentration of salbutamol metabolites - some simple math and basic chemistry should show the possibility exists.

 

Here is a nice discussion document on salbutamol usage in sport - designed for athletes doctors - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933613/

 

And here is an article on inhaled salbutamol use in non asthmatic subjects - there are many others that all have the same or similar conclusions.

http://thorax.bmj.com/content/56/9/675

[V12man]

Always good to get your informed views...

 

Can you think of any reason why it would have suddenly happened this day... conditions seemed fine, stage wasn't particularly hard or long - seems incredibly unlikely to me that it would suddenly happen out of the blue?

 

I mean he's never tested even a tiny bit over the limit, and now he's suddenly double it?

Or we talking so variable that 1 day in a blue moon excretion will be 5 times higher for no particular reason? Does the current limit take into account how variable the excretion can be?

If not surely we'd get this happening a lot more often

See my previous comment set - imagine a situation where he was dehydrated the day before, was nauseaous and threw up all night (makes dehydration worse), and then missed a bottle or two (not helped by UCI's stupid no feeding in the last few km rule) and cleared normal dosages at normal rates but produced little urine...  personally I would think it is possible, if not probable.