Accident in the cradle.

[V12man]

hahaha... jirrr dude. Lees jy ooit wat jy skryf? Anyways. Lekker dag

 

Translated: What you are saying isn't logical. But sure

In your opinion it is not logical - show me where the flaw is?

 

Don't just tell me it's not logical... make a case - wait - if you had one you would have made it...

[MTB-More]

In your opinion it is not logical - show me where the flaw is?

 

Don't just tell me it's not logical... make a case - wait - if you had one you would have made it...

 

A case was made like 4 times already. You dont have the foresight to see the accident in steps.

 

1. Truck driver overtook while it was safe to do so

2. Leader in the bunch braked and caused comotion

3. Wheels catching and bumping due to abreast riding and ill-discipline of not following single file rule or communication of action (braking)

4. Force rider into the road where a truck is

5. Accident

 

Bonus 6. Blame truck driver cause how dare he do his job on a Saturday when we want to hold hands riding 10 abreast and sing Cumba ya while disregarding the only rules keeping us safe.

 

Your logic claims 2,3,4 .. then 1 and then 5

 

Also if they were single file it wouldn't have happened. Case closed. Sorry but have to work now.

Edited May 14, 2018 by MTB-More

[Vetplant]

...

 

That said everyone has their own view and opinion. This is just my view of this ...

Yes, it is just your view, and people will challenge you on it because you are making a whole lot of assumptions because your weren't there, which is fine, but be prepared to be corrected.

 

hahaha... jirrr dude. Lees jy ooit wat jy skryf? Anyways. Lekker dag

 

Just a tip, you could have gotten much more traction with your posts if you employed some basic priciples:

 

Is it True? {You made many assumptions, some of which might not have been true}

Is it Kind? {Your tone invites backlash}

Is it Necessary? {I believe it is a necessary point you are raising that we need to constantly ask ourself, but you lost peoples compassion already}

 

But why bother, it is an online forum where people don't really know my identity, so I can be much more abrasive than what I would be in person.

[Bateleur1]

A case was made like 4 times already. You dont have the foresight to see the accident in steps.

 

1. Truck driver overtook while it was safe to do so (it was stated several times  already there was oncomming traffic)

2. Leader in the bunch braked and caused comotion

3. Wheels catching and bumping due to abreast riding and ill-discipline of not following single file rule or communication of action (braking)

4. Force rider into the road where a truck is

5. Accident

 

Bonus 6. Blame truck driver cause how dare he do his job on a Saturday when we want to hold hands riding 10 abreast and sing Cumba ya while disregarding the only rules keeping us safe.

 

Your logic claims 2,3,4 .. then 1 and then 5

 

Think you should also read your points 2,3 and 4 again ... maybe slowly.  If someone in the front is going to brake ... for whatever reason, single file will become a bunch in a matter of milliseconds.  So how you end up blaming the cyclists is also beyond me. 

 

I big problem with drivers in SA is they overtake when they deem it safe but in actual fact it is not.  The traffic laws are very clear on this you do not overtake when oncomming traffic is approaching.  So although on several occasions it was stated that the road was "wide enough" obviously it was not. 

 

Why did the cyclists started to get jittery? Maybe there was not as much space as everyone thought?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Bateleur1

[V12man]

A case was made like 4 times already. You dont have the foresight to see the accident in steps.

 

1. Truck driver overtook while it was safe to do so

2. Leader in the bunch braked and caused comotion

3. Wheels catching and bumping due to abreast riding and ill-discipline of not following single file rule or communication of action (braking)

4. Force rider into the road where a truck is

5. Accident

 

Bonus 6. Blame truck driver cause how dare he do his job on a Saturday when we want to hold hands riding 10 abreast and sing Cumba ya while disregarding the only rules keeping us safe.

 

Your logic claims 2,3,4 .. then 1 and then 5

 

Also if they were single file it wouldn't have happened. Case closed. Sorry but have to work now.

What law says it is ok to overtake into oncoming traffic?

What logic says it is safe to overtake into oncoming traffic?

 

You can appeal to any higher being you like - but you are mistaken in whose logic is missing.

 

 

 

 

Let me answer it for you - NONE.

[gogo@]

Good grief, is all I can say.

 

Not sure I want to know how some people who call themselves cyclists DRIVE given their interpretation of what "safe to overtake"means.

 

Which is also why I have an issue with the rule that cyclists must ride single file. It's much safer 2-up (and a little to the right of extreme left) because that forces drivers to evaluate the space they have for overtaking a bit more thoroughly rather than supposing they can push through especially when there is on-coming traffic (which includes on-coming cyclists and runners that many don't see as "traffic" at all).

[MTB-More]

What law says it is ok to overtake into oncoming traffic?

What logic says it is safe to overtake into oncoming traffic?

 

You can appeal to any higher being you like - but you are mistaken in whose logic is missing.

 

 

 

 

Let me answer it for you - NONE.

 

Define oncoming traffic

 

A other car? - No report of that

A truck maybe? - No report of that either

or a cyclist in the middle of the road? - This was due to events that may or may not have been cause with the truck already in the overtake lane... 

 

You keep on saying oncoming traffic. What oncoming traffic?

 

Edit - NVM. Don't answer that... You win. Its only logical that the truck driver is at fault. Cyclist never do anything wrong.

Edited May 14, 2018 by MTB-More

[Uni]

What law says it is ok to overtake into oncoming traffic?

What logic says it is safe to overtake into oncoming traffic?

 

You can appeal to any higher being you like - but you are mistaken in whose logic is missing.

 

 

 

 

Let me answer it for you - NONE.

I'm not sure why I'm wading into this, but I'm confused. 

Based on the report from the people on the scene - it was safe for the truck to pass and the truck was already in the middle of the road when the oncoming cyclists saw the truck and started to try and get the group to ride single file  - when mayhem occurred and unfortunately Victor fell into the road into the truck's path? 

 

Did I miss something?

[Bateleur1]

I was just behind Victor about to latch on to the back of the group. Was horrible to see up close.

 

There was a big group coming up to the caves, the truck pulled out to the middle of the road to overtake, whilst overtaking the C1 group passed on the other side, there was some touching of wheels and braking in the group, a few rode into the back of others, some ended up bailing left into the grass. Victor was unfortunate, he seemed to loose control and veered into the front of the truck, hitting it at bumper height and in a way fortunately stuck on the bumper rather than dropping to below and being run over. The truck stopped immediately.

 

I was close enough that I was also in a full braking slide but managed to stay upright.

 

There is nothing the truck driver could have done and was just a terrible freak accident.

 

Hoping Victor makes a full recovery and glad to hear was not fatal.

 

MTB-More.  Post nr 4 from shaper indicated a group of cyclists comming from the front.  It does not say wether they are single file or 4 abreast.  But does indicated uncomming traffic.  It is irrelevant what vehicle it is.  Uncomming traffic is uncomming traffic.  Maybe waiting for a couple of seconds could have avoided the accident.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Bateleur1

[Cava]

Unfortunately that section was very crowded, as it often is on a Saturday that time. The only way for trucks to pass both the groups on the left and right handed side of the road safely is to do drive in the middle of the road. That gives the groups on the left space to move into the road suddenly if needed and leaves enough space for the group on the other side of the road. 

 

This happens many times every weekend and fortunately mostly without incident.There was a bus a few hundred meters on doing the same thing, passing multiple groups in the middle of the road. The truck was moving slowly as the situation demanded. 

 

It's simply not safe to have trucks going through that section of road during that time on a Saturday. Those roads where in fact built not as a transport corridor, but to serve the tourism needs of the cradle world heritage site.  

 

As for single file riding, there are points for and against, but the simplest answer is that it's safer to ride indoors on a trainer, but still people ride outdoors. 

 

Any club or group that employs a single file only policy will soon have very few riders. Many people ride for the social experience as much as the exercise. Most group riders do understand that there is inherent risk to riding two abreast vs single file, just like there is more risk to single file than riding indoors. But we except that risk and try to mitigate it as much as possible. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Cava

[Bateleur1]

Unfortunately that section was very crowded, as it often is on a Saturday that time. The only way for trucks to pass both the groups on the left and right handed side of the road safely is to do drive in the middle of the road. That gives the groups on the left space to move into the road suddenly if needed and leaves enough space for the group on the other side of the road. 

 

 

 

Lets take the cyclists out of this scenario.  How often do you guys for example drive in your car on say the N1 through the Freestate or Norther Cape where it is only a single lane with a wide shoulder.  It is habit in SA that n slower vehicle will drive in the yellow lane to allow faster vehicles pass, but the lane itself is not wide enough to accomodate both vehicles within the center line.  So people move over into the oncomming lane expecting the uncomming traffic to move over into the yellow lane as the road will then be wide enough.  THIS IS ILLEGAL!! This is the point that V12man is trying to make.  You should not pass into uncomming traffic for whatever reason.

[V12man]

I'm not sure why I'm wading into this, but I'm confused. 

Based on the report from the people on the scene - it was safe for the truck to pass and the truck was already in the middle of the road when the oncoming cyclists saw the truck and started to try and get the group to ride single file  - when mayhem occurred and unfortunately Victor fell into the road into the truck's path? 

 

Did I miss something?

There seem to be 2 versions from people on the scene - some of the cyclists on the scene saw the oncoming group before the overtaking maneuver began - thus they would have been visible to the truck and the overtake should have not happened. And the other version is the overtake was safe (but clearly wasn't in the end)

 

I wasn't there personally but some of my training group were, so it's not entirely clear, but on balance it clearly was not a safe maneuver from the truck.

 

What is also important is to know what the road markings indicate at the scene (I don't know)  - plenty of regions where the center line prevents overtaking in that area both for visibility issues and because the road is a bit narrow at points.

[V12man]

Lets take the cyclists out of this scenario.  How often do you guys for example drive in your car on say the N1 through the Freestate or Norther Cape where it is only a single lane with a wide shoulder.  It is habit in SA that n slower vehicle will drive in the yellow lane to allow faster vehicles pass, but the lane itself is not wide enough to accomodate both vehicles within the center line.  So people move over into the oncomming lane expecting the uncomming traffic to move over into the yellow lane as the road will then be wide enough.  THIS IS ILLEGAL!! This is the point that V12man is trying to make.  You should not pass into uncomming traffic for whatever reason.

There are 2 illegal maneuvers in this:

 

1 - Driving inside the yellow line when it is not an emergency.

2 - Driving into the face of oncoming traffic.

[Uni]

There seem to be 2 versions from people on the scene 

 

What is also important is to know what the road markings indicate at the scene (I don't know)  

but both @shaper and @marcfr that were actually there on scene have stated it was enough space for all involved.

 

had it been a case of the truck crossed a solid line - i'm sure that would have been pointed out and people would be baying for his blood already. 

[eddy]

And that's not the truck drivers fault like V12man suggests. That was what I was saying.

 

And that's why we as cyclist need to follow the basic rules to ensure everyone safety. They were bunched as many have confirmed if you read everyone account of what happened.

 

 

 

The rules of the road say that an overtaking manoeuvre is only allowed when it is safe to do so. 

 

When there are objects : cars, cows, pedestrians, cyclists in the oncoming lane then your manoeuvre was undertaken at a time it was not safe, no matter what they were doing. The truck should not have overtaken.

 

That is not hard to understand.

[MTB-More]

but both @shaper and @marcfr that were actually there on scene have stated it was enough space for all involved.

 

had it been a case of the truck crossed a solid line - i'm sure that would have been pointed out and people would be baying for his blood already. 

 

We ignore the stated facts of people that were there and always blame the truck driver no matter what. 

 

I feel the truck driver was being courteous to both groups to drive in the middle of the road to give both groups equal space on the road to pass as it was clearly safe for him to do so with NO oncoming traffic. The fact that 1 group lost its cool and force someone into the road has nothing to do with the truck driver and everything to do with the discipline in that said group.