The Veganism Thread

[GrahamS2]

If you read my statement again , you will see that my point was not about individual people ( including myself ) but more "for the masses " . I might have the means to go and shop for the latest nice spice and fresh veggies , but 80% of our country might not ? 

95% of the world eats meat for a reason. It's a cheap, easy protein source. Even something as basic as the synthetic B12 supplements one would need to take as a vegan are beyond the affordability of a large percentage of Africa's population. Or India's. Or China's...

Edited December 4, 2018 by GrahamS2

[Odinson]

95% of the world eats meat for a reason. It's a cheap, easy protein source. Even something as basic as the synthetic B12 supplements one would need to take as a vegan are beyond the affordability of a large percentage of Africa's population. Or India's. Or China's...

 

That 95% eat meat because it oftentimes made artificially cheap through subsidies and other methods. Strip those away and we'll see the real price.

 

There's so much more nuance to this. What's the point of reaching protein targets, but then you have populations that are either under-or over nourished and riddled with chronic illnesses? You end up with governments providing subsidies to make meat cheap, but you also have skyrocketing public healthcare costs.  

[Chris_]

Do you believe this is by choice?

 

I think I know where you're going with this comment but I'll point it in a different direction.

 

Theres a book called The China Study. It documented the rise in middle class wealth in China and consequent rise in animal product consumption (as this is seen as a luxury food and therefore aspirational), and at the same time measured changes in various health issues.

 

The conclusion was pretty broad, because you have to take into account the clear rise in processed foods - whether one is a consequence of the other or not, medical gains, lifestyles, etc, (its just a huge book of data so if you want to poke holes in it you can really interpret it any way you like), but the link between moving away from plant based - as was prevalent in the 'old' days, to the increase in animal product consumption nowadays, and the subsequent rise in health problems - cancers, heart issues, is compelling.

[Gen]

I was driving behind horse trailers and thought I would ask what vegans views are on equesteian sport.

[Milkman]

I think I know where you're going with this comment but I'll point it in a different direction.

 

Theres a book called The China Study. It documented the rise in middle class wealth in China and consequent rise in animal product consumption (as this is seen as a luxury food and therefore aspirational), and at the same time measured changes in various health issues.

 

The conclusion was pretty broad, because you have to take into account the clear rise in processed foods - whether one is a consequence of the other or not, medical gains, lifestyles, etc, (its just a huge book of data so if you want to poke holes in it you can really interpret it any way you like), but the link between moving away from plant based - as was prevalent in the 'old' days, to the increase in animal product consumption nowadays, and the subsequent rise in health problems - cancers, heart issues, is compelling.

I don’t think anybody here disputes the fact that living on a mostly high fat deep fried processed food diet is bad for you ?!

Everything in moderation of course.

 

I don’t wanna answer for Patch here , but seeing that he was quoting me in his question I will elaborate on my statement once again ;

We live in a world where a big part of the population are struggling to find a means to have a healthy meal . Here in SA I think our problem is more an obesity problem ( I don’t have the facts , but can speculate it’s too much carbs ? ) and in other parts of the world it’s the opposite- famine . But almost all of the problems are because of economics .

It’s actually *** expensive to eat healthy in 3rd world countries .

 

So , until healthy food is within reach of the masses ( which unfortunately I don’t think will ever happen ) I stand by what I said : to be vegan by choice is very much a 1st world thing .

Edited December 4, 2018 by Milkman

[Patchelicious]

I think I know where you're going with this comment but I'll point it in a different direction.

 

Theres a book called The China Study. It documented the rise in middle class wealth in China and consequent rise in animal product consumption (as this is seen as a luxury food and therefore aspirational), and at the same time measured changes in various health issues.

 

The conclusion was pretty broad, because you have to take into account the clear rise in processed foods - whether one is a consequence of the other or not, medical gains, lifestyles, etc, (its just a huge book of data so if you want to poke holes in it you can really interpret it any way you like), but the link between moving away from plant based - as was prevalent in the 'old' days, to the increase in animal product consumption nowadays, and the subsequent rise in health problems - cancers, heart issues, is compelling.

I had no directional intention, I asked a question. 

 

Many people simply are not in a position to choose what they eat, they eat what they can. Its not a counter Veganism argument at all, its merely an observation. As the number of people living in absolute poverty reduces, hopefully more people will have the opportunity to choose morals over hunger. 

[Chris_]

I don’t think anybody here disputes the fact that living on a mostly high fat deep fried processed food diet is bad for you ?!

Everything in moderation of course.

 

I don’t wanna answer for Patch here , but seeing that he was quoting me in his question I will elaborate on my statement once again ;

We live in a world where a big part of the population are struggling to find a means to have a healthy meal . Here in SA I think our problem is more an obesity problem ( I don’t have the facts , but can speculate it’s too much carbs ? ) and in other parts of the world it’s the opposite- famine . But almost all of the problems are because of economics .

It’s actually *** expensive to eat healthy in 3rd world countries .

 

So , until healthy food is within reach of the masses ( which unfortunately I don’t think will ever happen ) I stand by what I said : to be vegan by choice is very much a 1st world thing .

 

I understand the points you've been raising. And I actually agree. But I also think we're overlapping arguments at times here. 

 

I agree its very difficult, even as a top percentile, to go out and find food that suits restrictive diets. Because we're stuck in a certain 'what food looks like' mindset. But I also know that (and this is not a jab at you) but its very easy to find reason to complain and give up, rather than make an effort and make it work. We (personally) found that cutting out meat has been a challenge under normal life, but once we apply our minds and pots and pans it can actually work.

 

The angle I though Patch was taking was one of poverty. Thats a different problem. I think thats more education related ito food choices. Obesity like you say, nutrition, disease, maybe 'the masses' don't know these things from a bar of soap. Perhaps the cost of healthy food isn't the problem for the people but knowledge of such is. (?)

[Thor Buttox]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/bringing-home-the-bacon-offensive-to-vegans/news-story/8980653eddd9d27919024b6489c10f07

 

When you know a good thing has gone too far again, sadly.

[Patchelicious]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/bringing-home-the-bacon-offensive-to-vegans/news-story/8980653eddd9d27919024b6489c10f07

 

When you know a good thing has gone too far again, sadly.

 

Religionists: Bad ideas that ruined good people.

Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea.

[Eldron]

Bottom line time.

 

The fact that a reduced meat diet is good for the planet is pretty clear. Anyone with children should already be looking for ways to lessen their impact on the planet. Eating less meat is one of the beat/easiest ways to achieve that.

 

The gung ho I'm an uberman because I eat lots of meat line is a little like showing your little Johnny/Julie the middle finger.

[Odinson]

Religionists: Bad ideas that ruined good people.

Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea.

 

Millions of chilled vegans: *crickets*

Handful of attention-seekers: "Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea."

 

[Patchelicious]

Millions of chilled vegans: *crickets*

Handful of attention-seekers: "Veganists: Bad people ruining a good idea."

 

Unfortunately its always the morons who are the loudest.

 

Those millions of chilled vegans are the cool ones, but if you want applause for being normal you likely wont get. The ones in that article, the Veganists, are a problem. Surely we can agree on that.

[Odinson]

Unfortunately its always the morons who are the loudest.

 

Those millions of chilled vegans are the cool ones, but if you want applause for being normal you likely wont get. The ones in that article, the Veganists, are a problem. Surely we can agree on that.

 

I do. Like any collection of humans united under a common purpose, there are those that are going to 'ruin' it by saying/doing stoopid ****. That's human nature. 

 

Veganism is (un)fortunately* in the position where it has now become part of the mainstream social consciousness in many parts of the world, so much so that outlets know that readers love vegans saying controversial things. Equally guilty are the people who say this crap, just to get their 15min. 

 

For me, I'm not too fazed by these attention-seeking ultra-PC outliers. I'm just going to do my thing. 

 

*read it as per your view

Edited December 4, 2018 by Odinson

[Milkman]

Bottom line time.

 

The fact that a reduced meat diet is good for the planet is pretty clear. Anyone with children should already be looking for ways to lessen their impact on the planet. Eating less meat is one of the beat/easiest ways to achieve that.

 

The gung ho I'm an uberman because I eat lots of meat line is a little like showing your little Johnny/Julie the middle finger.

 

 

You are 100% correct - we can all try and do a little something to leave the planet a better place when we exit than when we entered . Unfortunately it's not always possible.

 

I certainly do not have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want in their own house/lives .The only beef ( I couldn't help myself there ) I have with vegans ( and for that matter religious people and anybody else ) is if they become militant and try and enforce their ways or believes on me .

If I am sitting in a restaurant enjoying my steak and some hipster with a man bun millennial comes and spits on my steak and calls me a murderer , well , I am going to react to that - and it might not be in a very civil way .

[Patchelicious]

For those who think veganism is a great philosophy of life and that a vegan body is inherently disease-free, let me clarify your myth about healthy eating.

 

A diet which lacks dairy, eggs, and meat is inherently lacking in proteins. A pure vegan can experience iron, calcium, and Vitamin D and B12 deficiency.

 

These could be risk factors for anemia or bone fractures. In short, just by removing animal products from the diet doesn’t make the diet healthy.

 

So, in short, veganism might help a few - it is definitely not a sustainable diet, especially for growing children as it could lead to numerous nutritional deficiencies. 

 

[Odinson]

For those who think veganism is a great philosophy of life and that a vegan body is inherently disease-free, let me clarify your myth about healthy eating.

 

A diet which lacks dairy, eggs, and meat is inherently lacking in proteins. A pure vegan can experience iron, calcium, and Vitamin D and B12 deficiency.

 

These could be risk factors for anemia or bone fractures. In short, just by removing animal products from the diet doesn’t make the diet healthy.

 

So, in short, veganism might help a few - it is definitely not a sustainable diet, especially for growing children as it could lead to numerous nutritional deficiencies. 

 

Show me the evidence to support your position. [Edit: otherwise, Hitchen's razor will be employed]

 

Oh, and who are you? Pseudonym account? Hmmmm. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Odinson