The Veganism Thread

[Patchelicious]

I don't know anybody (my healthy cycling mates, with a varied generally healthy diet), who does take supplements. The consensus amongst us when we have discussed it is, that if you eat real food you don't need them.

 

 

I think you'd be surprised to what extent the average South African 'supplements' without even knowing it. Odds are that if you eat certain maize and wheat meals, you're supplementing with vitamin A, thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pyridoxine, folic acid, iron and zinc. This fortification is required by law. 

 

Then look at processed foods such as breakfast cereals and quick prep foods such as Futurelife. All fortified. 

 

Then take it one step further - how many of the animals that you eat haven't been supplemented with feed licks and blocks which are used to fortify, among other purposes, their diet. 

 

All this is often done with very good reason. Micronutrient deficiency is a big problem in SA and most of the world actually. 

 

He wasnt talking about processed foods and quick preps. 

[Mojoman]

Regarding the movie game changers and the impressive results following a weeks vegan diet. Are there health benefits to a vegetarian diet including eggs an cheese?

 

If so what are they?

I've been vegetarian for 6 or 7 odd years....haven't eaten eggs in years since getting an embryo in my fried egg... and I only eat cheese when I buy a pizza..may e once a month these days...not many alternatives in my small town. Milk I seldom drink other than hot chocolate in winter. I feel pretty good. Give it a go...nothing to lose...

[Mudsimus]

I think you'd be surprised to what extent the average South African 'supplements' without even knowing it. Odds are that if you eat certain maize and wheat meals, you're supplementing with vitamin A, thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pyridoxine, folic acid, iron and zinc. This fortification is required by law.

 

 

The whole point is that if you eat a healthy balanced diet then you don’t need to pop pills made by smart men in white coats. No one in my family uses supplements, we don’t eat refined/processed fortified foods, and guess what. We are perfectly healthy. Wonder why.

 

Fortified foods are mostly foods consumed by lower income groups, people that cant afford pills and instagram diets.

[Odinson]

The whole point is that if you eat a healthy balanced diet then you don’t need to pop pills made by smart men in white coats. No one in my family uses supplements, we don’t eat refined/processed fortified foods, and guess what. We are perfectly healthy. Wonder why.

 

Fortified foods are mostly foods consumed by lower income groups, people that cant afford pills and instagram diets.

 

I'm assuming that you and the rest of the family have had your blood screened? Micronutrient deficiency symptoms can be subtle. If you did and everything is hunky dory, great! 

 

On a plant-based diet you can also be perfectly healthy. It's that simple. You don't need to contribute to animal cruelty and the destruction of our planet to be healthy. 

 

If you have that option, why wouldn't you do it? 

[Odinson]

New research coming out this week: 

 

Multiple health and environmental impacts of foods

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think this study is also relevant here in as far as it relates to a plant-based diet and the intersection with environmental and disease factors. 

[MTBeer]

Think this study is also relevant here in as far as it relates to a plant-based diet and the intersection with environmental and disease factors. 

so is that saying potatoes are healthier than eggs and fish and olive oil?

Edited October 30, 2019 by MTBeer

[Mudsimus]

I'm assuming that you and the rest of the family have had your blood screened? Micronutrient deficiency symptoms can be subtle. If you did and everything is hunky dory, great!

 

On a plant-based diet you can also be perfectly healthy. It's that simple. You don't need to contribute to animal cruelty and the destruction of our planet to be healthy.

 

If you have that option, why wouldn't you do it?

I fully agree that a plant based diet can be healthy. My problem is that vegans, not necessarily you, claims that its healthier than other healthy balanced diets. Its not.

 

I had my blood screened when I started struggling mid Comrades training. Everything was fine, Dr said I need to run less. Probably a vegan Dr, so I didn't listen.

[Mudsimus]

so is that saying potatoes are healthier than eggs and fish and olive oil?

No. But potatoes doesn’t have feelings.

[Odinson]

so is that saying potatoes are healthier than eggs and fish and olive oil?

 

Not entirely, if you look at the study that they included in their analysis. It's seems a bit derp to consider a boiled potato and french fries in the same analysis, but that's what was done. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29987352

 

 

 

PURPOSE:

We aimed to synthesize the evidence on the relation between different types of potato consumption with risk of all-cause mortality, coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, type 2 diabetes (T2D), colorectal cancer (CRC), and hypertension.

METHODS:

Systematic searches until May 2018 were conducted in PubMed, Scopus, and Web of Science. Random effects meta-analyses comparing extreme categories, linear and non-linear dose-response analyses were conducted.

RESULTS:

Twenty-eight reports were identified. Only total potato consumption was available for some endpoints which showed no associations with all-cause mortality (RR: 0.88, 95% CI 0.69-1.12), CHD (RR: 1.03, 95% CI 0.96-1.09), stroke (RR: 0.98, 95% CI 0.93-1.03), and CRC (RR: 1.05, 95% CI 0.92-1.20) per one daily/serving (150 g/day) increase. Consumption of one daily serving of boiled/baked/mashed-potatoes was not associated with risk of hypertension (RR: 1.08, 95% CI 0.96-1.21), but slightly with the risk of T2D (RR: 1.09, 95% 1.01-1.18). Positive associations for the risk of T2D (RR: 1.66, 95% CI 1.43-1.94) and hypertension (RR: 1.37, 95% CI 1.15-1.63) were observed for each 150 g/day increase in French-fries consumption. The quality of evidence was rated mostly low (moderate quality of evidence for the risk-associations of French-fries).

CONCLUSION:

Total potato consumption is not related to risk for many chronic diseases but could pose a small increase in risk for T2D if consumed boiled. A clear risk relation was found between French-fries consumption and risk of T2D and hypertension. For several outcomes, the impact of different preparation procedures could not be assessed.

[Odinson]

I fully agree that a plant based diet can be healthy. My problem is that vegans, not necessarily you, claims that its healthier than other healthy balanced diets. Its not.

 

I had my blood screened when I started struggling mid Comrades training. Everything was fine, Dr said I need to run less. Probably a vegan Dr, so I didn't listen.

 

What the evidence shows is that your risk for some of the leading killers are lower on a plant-based diet. I'll never claim that you can't be healthy as an omnivore. 

 

It's also a diet that will typically have the lowest environmental impact. 

 

And most importantly, we keep animals off our plate. 

 

So, again, my question, if you agree that you can be healthy as a vegan, why not go vegan? 

[Patchelicious]

I'm assuming that you and the rest of the family have had your blood screened? Micronutrient deficiency symptoms can be subtle. If you did and everything is hunky dory, great! 

 

On a plant-based diet you can also be perfectly healthy. It's that simple. You don't need to contribute to animal cruelty and the destruction of our planet to be healthy. 

 

If you have that option, why wouldn't you do it? 

 

All three the points health, carbon foot print and animal cruelty, in one small paragraph.

[IceCreamMan]

I've been vegetarian for 6 or 7 odd years....haven't eaten eggs in years since getting an embryo in my fried egg... and I only eat cheese when I buy a pizza..may e once a month these days...not many alternatives in my small town. Milk I seldom drink other than hot chocolate in winter. I feel pretty good. Give it a go...nothing to lose...

 

I was a vegetarian for many years but "backslid". That's when I was young and the spread was decades away. Now the spread is real in spite of IM training and the like.

 

So, I have loads to lose

 

I don't particularly care for milk, I drink a cup of coffee a day, consume very little. But shmaaak cheese and particularly toasted cheese sarmies with soup. Have 2 boiled eggs every morning to maintain consistent energy levels for the day.

 

Not really a big meat eater in the first place. One of the issues in the fliek mentioned increased energy levels on a vegan diet. If I could improve my energy levels through diet I would be up for it.

[Mudsimus]

What the evidence shows is that your risk for some of the leading killers are lower on a plant-based diet. I'll never claim that you can't be healthy as an omnivore.

 

It's also a diet that will typically have the lowest environmental impact.

 

And most importantly, we keep animals off our plate.

 

So, again, my question, if you agree that you can be healthy as a vegan, why not go vegan?

Some of the leading killers are lower on plant based diets.. Compared to what? Unhealthy western diets?

 

I have no reason to go vegan, I don't mind animals on my plate, I eat a healthy diet and I enjoy it.

 

Doing yoga is also healthy, why isn't everyone doing yoga? Because there are other more enjoyable ways of exercise with the same benefits to yourself.

[Odinson]

Some of the leading killers are lower on plant based diets.. Compared to what? Unhealthy western diets?

 

I have no reason to go vegan, I don't mind animals on my plate, I eat a healthy diet and I enjoy it.

 

Doing yoga is also healthy, why isn't everyone doing yoga? Because there are other more enjoyable ways of exercise with the same benefits to yourself.

 

As in this study, risk isn't comparative. It can be independently measured. 

 

Would you hold the same moral position if you were in the position of the non-human animals? Would you also say to the exploiter "It's your personal choice to exploit. Feel free". I don't think you would. 

 

It's not a personal choice when there is a victim involved. We reject these 'personal choice/subjective morality' moral positions when assessing human interactions, so why do we accept it when it comes to our relationship with non-human animals?  

[Mudsimus]

 

Would you hold the same moral position if you were in the position of the non-human animals?

Im not. I dont live my life based on whataboutalisms

 

What if you were a starving child in Somalia, would you drink milk or eat an egg if it was your only food for that week?

[Odinson]

Im not. I dont live my life based on whataboutalisms

 

What if you were a starving child in Somalia, would you drink milk or eat an egg if it was your only food for that week?

 

Nice straw-man red herring [figure that's more appropriate], but "I dont live my life based on whataboutalisms" Neither you nor I am a starving Somali child. 

 

Let's reframe this: Bad Guy goes and robs a liquor store. A struggle breaks out and the proprietor gets shot and killed. At Bad Guy's first court appearance he gets up and proclaims "Morality is subjective. It's my personal choice to rob and kill. It fits within my moral framework. Who are you to judge?"

 

How do you respond?

a) "It's your choice. Who am I to judge your actions?"

b) "No. Personal choice does not extend to situations in which your actions cause suffering to others."

Edited October 30, 2019 by Odinson